I need something explained to me

Why do you put out a PR release that anyone who has every played anything remotely resembling an MMO can immediately spot the major issue with?

Discover new stuff to craft by experimenting? Hi in beta someone is going to create a crafting wiki with ALL the stuff to craft, until you release a patch, and then 10sec later the site is going to get updated with the new stuff you just added.

Look, I’m semi-excited for Prime, but putting out rookie stuff like this is not a good sign. Either you are foolish enough to believe any kind of discovery is possible, which means you are new to MMO games, or you have come up with a cool system to stop this (AC1, sorta kinda but not really) and failed to say so, suggesting your PR sucks. I’ll take the latter over the former, but we all know which one it most likely is.

Is it just me, or is this kind of stuff not rocket science…?

32 Responses to I need something explained to me

  1. Ravious says:

    Guild Wars 2 has the same thing, they’ve said. People that want to experiment can, and people that just want a wiki roadmap will do that. That was the defense anyway.

  2. Am I looking at that UI right? Did they just copy the Horadric Cube, complete with mystery recipes?

  3. Adam says:

    LOL….

    “””how many times in an mmo do you shoot and it shoots totally crazy not where you are aiming… ours aims for you”””

    tab targeting bullshit.

    bad game is bad.

  4. Akjosch says:

    Oh, but there are methods to deal with that wikification (is that a word?) of knowledge: Have all but the simplest recipes be (at least in part) randomised with the seed value being the UUID (or even just a suitable hash of the name+creation date) of the character.

    The recipes aren’t known until you discover them, and everyone has different ones.

  5. Ardwulf says:

    Amusingly, elsewhere there is discussion of just how exciting this is.

  6. Torcano says:

    Well i hate to be a jerk but if you read the details on their website it sounds wy different than You would think from this post.

    They only use the word experiment as in “experiment to find the finer nuances of their profession”.

    It also clearly states that schematics are obtained by reverse engineering items, not experimenting at all….

    Some cool additional notes, that items have durability and are finite, except it seems unique uncraftable ones…but they might be finite too actually its unclear. Materials themselves have different grades…although my big question is are they harvested from nodes, defeated foes…etc?

    • Werit says:

      From what I have seen so far, you plant a harvester and come back X amount of time later to get the resources. It is a bit like SWG in that regard.

    • coppertopper says:

      There’s actually an “Experiment” button in the crafting window, right next to the one you’d push to just craft from a known schematic.

      • Torcano says:

        My mistake I didn’t examine the pic, I went by what they had described on their website, which apparently is sort of misleading.

        My question now is are there randomly generated items, as if so then schematics will be ridiculously broad in scope and amount.

        If not then experimenting fails…

        Also the mechanics of reverse engineering would be good to know,

  7. Nils says:

    Apparently they believe that those players who like experimenting can do it – and those players who don’t like it can have a look at the wiki.

    I agree with you. This line of thinking is directed at satisfiying the lowest common denominator, not the individual player.

  8. coppertopper says:

    Somehow I think its a way to make “Powerful Gloves of the Wombat” random-named generated stuff that we’ve seen in Diablo style lootfest games, where you’ll get terrible combinations of stats making the items /salvage. But thats also kind of cool really.

    If you go to their site though, that crafting station window is really simple and elegant. And the icons for the inventory items very well designed/easily identifiable.

    • Stabs says:

      It isn’t.

      An experiment that gives the recipe for Deft Gloves will always give that same recipe.

      Whenever you make Deft Gloves you get random stats. Resources also have stats which affects the stats of the product.

      But all recipes are the same and all experiment formulas are the same. If I discover experimenting on Titanium + Aluminum gives Deft Gloves then everyone else with enough Armour tech skill can do the same experiment and get exactly the same recipe.

  9. Shadow says:

    I don’t think that “players are going to figure it out and spread the knowlesge” is a reason NOT to do something. It can provide some interesting game play early on, and then be a gathering point for community members to meet on later.

    The presumption is that they aren’t aware of wiki-sites and community information efforts. Perhaps they are and wanted to give that segment something to make their own. Or maybe they created a more complex crafting system on the back end like a previous commentor mentioned.

    /shrug

    • Drew says:

      As long as it’s better implemented than the disaster that was FFXIV’s “learn recipes” crafting system at launch, it will be an improvement. What a stupid mess that was. Based on what I’m reading on the site and Stabs’ blog it sounds like this will be infinitely better.

      I never played SWG, but from what I’ve heard I hope this provides a similar experience to the pre-NGE days mixed with DAOC.

  10. bhagpuss says:

    It’s really simple. People who are able to exercise self-restraint in the interest of enhancing their own entertainment will enjoy experimenting. Those are the people who have learned how not to spoil their own fun. It’s a life skill.

    Others can use the wiki then complain bitterly about how the crafting sucks.

    Because the latter group exists and has yet to acquire self-restraint is no reason to penalize the former.

    • SynCaine says:

      That approach works great in an sRPG, but it falls very flat in a PvP MMO. Gimping yourself for the chance to experiment is something very few will be willing to do, and even fewer will get away with it in a clan setting.

    • Torcano says:

      The problem as syncaine says is the former are either idiots or won’t play a PvP mmo.

      If you want to enjoy gimping yourself you play an mmo that isn’t intrinsically competitive, or have a lot less fun in a game you clearly don’t really want to play for its core gameplay.

      • bhagpuss says:

        Fair enough re the PvP part. I was forgetting Prime is being hyped mainly as a PvP game. GW2 being much more a PvE game with optional PvP (if I understand it correctly) should be a better fit for the “suck it and see” approach to crafting.

  11. Saucelah says:

    I don’t see enough information there to conclude that experiments will be the same for all players and easily listed and looked up online — I see that as one possibility from this release, but not the only one.

  12. The experimentation thing can be interesting, but it is hemmed in by the price of resources and the desire for a game to have an economy.

    If resources are expensive or difficult to obtain and you lose them through experimentation, almost everybody will go to the wiki. That was the problem with early EQ crafting, especially armor crafting. Expensive resources, no recipes, and you lost everything if you gambled wrong.

    If resources are easy to obtain, to the point of nearly being free, more people will experiment, but nothing will have value and there will be no economy.

    Somewhere there is probably some middle ground that will work best, but I haven’t seen it yet.

  13. theJexster says:

    They should use the Fable marketing strat, it worked for WAR and for SWTOR. Promise everything and show nothing. Its cheep, easy, and works like a charm.

    • You need a Brit front man for that to work, don’t you? Fable had Peter Molyneux and his vision, while WAR had that Barnett bloke.

      Who has BioWare got? Canadian accents won’t convince us, no matter how adorable they were on Degrassi.

    • SynCaine says:

      Ah now I get it.

      “Q: How will you raise your skill in your profession? Make 40 of the same schematic for a possible point each time until you unlock a higher tiered schematic, rinse, repeat?
      A: You COULD level up that way. /shudder

      Not only would that be a miserable grind, and one you inflicted on yourself, but you’d be an embarrassment. You would be a high level crafter with one schematic to your name, and then when you go back to “do” new schematics (because you downloaded them from a website, you weenie), you wouldn’t get anything (skill-wise) from the process.

      Making gear for people who need it and experimenting whenever you find something new would be more fun. Good grief, ANYTHING would be more fun.”

      The above is so incredibly naive it’s embarrassing. This is a PvP game, people are going to play to win. Do they really think top crafters are going to wait around and craft an item every now and then for someone, skilling up ‘naturally’ because that’s more ‘fun’?

      And if getting to 1000 is even remotely possible in that way, then grinding it out will take a few days at most. Guess what happens after a few days and the first 1000 crafter? No on asks the noobs below 1000 for crafting, since they have stated more points = better items.

      This really is 1997 wishful thinking here, and PvP players are going to tear this wonderful bubble of hope apart on day one.

  14. coppertopper says:

    Those leet guilds, like the one you belong too that you claim can faceroll thru Rift’s Tier 2 expert dungeons in 20mins, and probably mastered all the skilling up exploits in Darkfall immediately, will always find a way to game the game. For the rest of us, this is an addition to casual play that may not get us that 5% advantage in PvP, but actually sounds like a fun twist on the usual bs crafting of recent MMOs.

    • SynCaine says:

      Top guilds did exploit the hell out of DF, it’s well documented. The result was not a 5% advantage though, it was total domination. If crafting is as important in Prime as the devs say it will be, the same will happen here. Main difference between DF and Prime here is that in DF, they exploited. Here, they are going to be playing by the rules. Much harder to ban, much easier to change the rules.

      I’ll predict it now, if this system goes live the way it sounds right now, the first patch or so will increase the crafting grind 10-fold. Too bad by then the top guilds will already be at 1000 in everything.

      • Shadow says:

        Honestly, it’s sounding like the SWG crafting system. In fact, they’ve made not-so-veiled comments in their U-Stream videos that the crafting of a “certain Sci-fi MMO” has highly influenced them. If they follow that system pretty closely, my worries are almost completely allayed.

    • Torcano says:

      Problem is that while in theory taking your time is fun, past games have proven time and again that the vast majority of players find being at the highest possible level, power, stats, etc

      For crafting even more so, as who wants to buy from subpar crafters?

      • Stabs says:

        Item stats are based on random number + resource stats + crafter skill.

        A skill 1000 crafter may not always make a better pair of Deft Gloves than a skill 400 crafter but it’s like trying to out-roll d6+2 with d6.

        That said I think everyone’s who is interested in crafting will level up pretty quick. The devs have said they want it to take about a month to hit max level.

        Also we don’t know how the supply will relate to the demand. Everyone needs player crafted armour and then needs more when the old stuff breaks. High flying early achievers probably won’t be able to supply the entire server. Not least because at the moment it apparently takes 3 minutes to craft one piece.

  15. Stabs says:

    You have the right of it Syncaine but I wouldn’t say it’s a rookie mistake. Exploration in crafting is really hard with MMOs. I can’t think of any games where you craft while thinking I wonder what’s going to happen.

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