It’s no secret that the forums of any MMO are not exactly the best place to go if you want to judge the health or status of the game itself, but recently things have just gotten head-shake sad with ForumFall. Even though in-game Agon is busier than ever, the same individuals are still prophesying doom and proclaiming how dead the game is. Normally this is laughable and a side-conversation, but at least on the NA clan discussion forum, it’s nearly every other topic.
And while this makes the forums a sad (and more importantly, boring) place to visit, it signals a positive step for everyone actually playing. The ones currently doing the crying are generally very high-end characters, individuals who are more or less ‘done’ with their progression and are now looking around for something to do. The problem for them is that while DarkFall does have great PvP, that one aspect is NOT enough to keep you going. The game is not a FPS with jump in/jump out PvP. It’s the game’s combination of great PvP AND character progress that makes DF work, and as evident in-game, it IS working.
Here are the difference though, just based on my observations in the last few weeks. The super-elite groups are less active thanks to the recent release of Bad Company 2, some SWG emu that is the current FOTM for that subsection of the community, and a general lull between expansions. This means that cities like Talpec and Dagnamyr are less active, and don’t get raided by other super-elites as often. It also means those super-elite groups are not as active in the political and siege game, which further lowers activity. If all you know of DarkFall is the above, yea, it’s dying.
But in direct contrast to that, the starter areas are as busy as I’ve seen them since launch, the global chat channels are full with new user questions and answers, and new clans are living out of previously dead cities/hamlets and bringing activity to those areas. Just last night Grim and I ran across a group of seven players out capturing villages, and after one hell of a battle, we learned that five of them were new to the game and just getting into it. For the first time since launch, my character actually feels like a big deal when fighting others, rather than being far behind the elite.
But that’s just how MMOs work, the first wave usually consumes the content quickly and establishes dominance. They then grow bored, declare the game dead, and move on. As they leave, new players come in, and the cycle continues. This is why the perceived character gap is never as large as some make it out to be. Those 400+hp characters are generally on their last days, and soon they will end up leaving. Not all of them of course, but enough to keep the average down and allow others to become the big fish.
What’s most important is not to keep the super-elite happy with whatever requests they make, because regardless of what you do they will find another reason to be upset. No, what is important is to make sure that not only are they being replaced when they leave, but that the rate of incoming players is higher than the rate of people leaving. Based on just my observations in-game, I’d say that is currently the case. Too bad the ForumFall community is too busy posting to take a look as well.
Hardcore Casual 
That’s what I always think. Those people crying their eyes out and whinig for faster stat gains should simply take on the people at the same stat level. There sure are enough of these. It’s just a little hard to spot them.
What do you think about the numbers from http://df.urme.com/index.php?page=guilds and its NA-1 counterpart, http://darkfallinfo.com/pmap/index.php?page=clans, as an indication of DFO population?
I think those numbers (active players in a clan) +/- 10% for players not in a clan are as close and as accurate as we can get to the actual DF playerbase.
Also, I highly doubt the creators of both sites have any motivation to fudge the numbers either way. So yea…
edit: make that “+10% for players not in a clan”
Sort that by most active clans and tell me what you see, and then come back and tell me how accurate the whole process might be.
But more to the point, 10% is a silly number to throw out for actives not a clan. Aside from many players having un-clanned alts (who are not more players, but are more paying accounts), one ride through any starter area will show you the % of people who are unclanned and playing. Those living out of a player city will obviously believe everyone is clanned, but those living in NPC cities will see a very different picture.
Not to say that the effort is completely useless, but I’d place its value right next to Xfire stats when judging a games health. Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not.
So what do you think is the ratio of unclanned to clanned players?
I really don’t know. If I’m standing in Copperfield, I can look around and say its 80/20 unclanned. I can stand in Dag and say its 100/0 clanned. Ride around Yssam, 90/10 clanned. Ride through Maharim territory, 70/30 unclanned. Now factor in alts, trial players, how ‘actives’ are counted, and it gets messy.
I sorted that by active players and its just wacky as hell.
I see clans I’ve never heard or seen at the top of the activity chart.
I see active clans I fight almost daily with “no actives” etc.
There are plenty of people to fight, play and trade with in Darkfall right now.
I just logged off my Vanguard server, Xeth. Currently just under 150 people online there. According to that link above Darkfall has single guilds with more people than that :)
Didn’t stop me spending half my savings on almost the stuff I need to build a new house. Hasn’t stopped the VG dev team (four people at the last count I saw) adding the second tranche of new content this year. Games are dead when the owner turns the server off and not before.
Everything you say about super-elites is true. Why MMO companies pander to them so blatantly is beyond me. It surely must do sales/retention more harm than good in the long run.
Perhaps I’ve misinterpreted the class of person you are suggesting to ignore, but your conclusion seems untenable (since it’s impossible to maintain an ever-increasing influx of new players). There is a finite number of people in the pool for Darkfall, a niche game within a (relatively) niche genre, to draw new subscriptions from. If you adopt this mentality wholesale, and never attempt to assuage the complaints of those who have “completed” the game’s content, eventually your well of players runs dry. And then the game does die.
Presumably the “super-elite” are those who have “finished” the game’s content sooner than the rest, however, eventually everyone gets to that point. It’s then a matter of whether or not you address the issue now or later, and there seems to be little downside to considering it now in order to prevent a potential mass-exodus in the future.
EVE?
I don’t think he means never increase end game content. He means don’t focus on that above creating a better game for the majority.
AV have already added a steady stream of stuff to do. Sea Towers, Villages, Private Homes, Trade Routes, Title Quests, Standard Quests, New Crafting Professions.
The key is none if these things are just for ‘end game’ players. The new content gives old players something to do, but also makes the game more fun for everyone.
DAoC had a meta game that rewarded points and skills for rvr success. EvE has uber ships and an almost endless skill progression and areas of crafting expertise. Taking a town so you can have a bank/guild house/pretty place to logout is a boring end game prospect. Can’t really blame players who are fully skilled up after < 1 year for complaining about lack of endgame when ompared to those two examples.
Stat progression in DF is as long if not longer than DAoC RR ranks, with certain skills also requiring similar effort. There were capped RR players in DAoC, just like there are a very select few capped DF players. It’s not the truly endless progression of EVE, but it’s not ding 80 and done.
And if we ARE comparing end-game, DF does what DAoC wished it could do in terms of end-game PvP, both from a player-skill progression level and a risk/reward/evolution level. DAoC was PvP done easy, but lets not pretend what Mythic wished it could have done back then is not what DF does now.
Same goes for EVE, just because technically you can always be training something does not mean most 0.0 pilots are effectively ‘done’ in terms of combat growth, at least until new things (T3 ships) are added. So far DF has followed a similar pattern of addition/expansion.
Regardless, just like the capped RR players quit DAoC, those same types are threatening to leave DF. End of the day, it’s a non-issue that sadly takes up way too much space on the forums.
You get the endgame you want in Darkfall.
My guild leader 1v1’ed the pvp roster of an entire guild last night, he walked away when they wanted to try again 2v1’ing (but he’ll probably go again).
He has 300ish of that 450max hp btw :)
Duels aren’t the answer. Darkfall is falling into the same trap as EvE PvP. Once the political borders are drawn it’s the very strong vs everyone else, with very little PvP goal wise to attain after that. EvE has an endless variety of ships, DAoC endless classes…PvP in and of itself is always different but still Darkfall has little to offer besides the act itself once you have the biggest town and your skillset is = / > everone else.
Wrong.
PvP-wise I’m right. Oh you can do all those PvE things and pretend your not now doing the exact same thing you did in WoW all those years…
No, you are wrong. Look at the NA1 political map and tell me how that’s looking power-wise.
Oh and DF mobs fight back.
Maybe they should speed up the leveling of stats? If the so called “Vet” players are leaving the game at a rapid rate, clearly it’s because the lack of other “Vets” to fight.
The whiniest supervets are leaving because they are starting to lose their edge against the more normal mass of players.
Curious about what you think of all the forum posters who are thinking of NEW members as a bunch of self entitled jerks. By all appearances, some of the people recently commenting appeared to be supporters of the “idea” but personal experience with NEW players wasn’t positive.
Sounds like trolling and bs.
New has no membership requirements, you message the SG and you are in.
It’s just every newb that manages that, ie a cross-section of new players.
They get kicked after 1 month period.
You should join and try it out.
So, a sandbox-mmo with end-game content problems, how surprising ;) .
Isn’t there like a EVE-like economy going or something? Surely we all know by now you can’t have this long progression road [which are mostly PvE] and then only at the end you start to do serious PvP , only to realise that “that is it” ?
Now add the other complexity, which i thought we learned from Warhammer. In a RvR/Open-PvP game where it is all about mass warfare , population is -everything-. If players don’t get together, there is no PvP , if there’s not enough or one side dominates another too much, the game is dead. This is almost impossible to balance purely relying on the playerbase alone.
Now i’m not saying Darkfall might be all that, but you did say the dreaded words “BUT THAT’S JUST HOW MMOs WORK” , which implies Darkfall has all the same flaws and problems the other MMOs have when it comes to population-slumps and end-game activities.
There is really great pvp right now.
We’ve had some of the most fun fights on record just in the last two weeks.
Powerlevelers always burn out early… they did in Warhammer as well.
Since there is no faction but the normal social organization in Darkfall of different guilds and alliances there is plenty of people and things to fight about.
In a faction based game like Warhammer one side can easily become demoralized and stop playing.
“The ones currently doing the crying are generally very high-end characters, individuals who are more or less ‘done’ with their progression and are now looking around for something to do…. The game is not a FPS with jump in/jump out PvP. It’s the game’s combination of great PvP AND character progress that makes DF work…. Those 400+hp characters are generally on their last days, and soon they will end up leaving.”
Whether the population is currently going up or down, you pretty much say that progression is a necessary part of the enjoyment in DF and that once a character is maxed, the player is likely to grow bored and move on.
Um, I’ve gotta say, I don’t find that reassuring for long-term enjoyment of the game.
When a guild beats the final raid boss, what happens? When someone hit the RR cap in DAoC/WAR, what happens? When someone get ‘best in slot’ items in all slots, what happens?
My point was without some form of progression, regardless of which MMO we are talking about, most players will at least decrease their play time, if not all-together stop. That’s why the grind at the very end is a mountain, and why the point of being ‘done’ is constantly moving.
Late-comer to this topic, and wanted to reply to a specific here.
In WAR, there isn’t much to do post RR cap. There is some, but not much, and it’s all based around gear progression. You can either try to get into guilds that can kill the enemy king, and be a part of that so you can get sovereign, or you can hope that you attack the sub-bosses enough, as well as get enough lucky crest drops to buy all your sovereing gear. There is also the recent scenario-weapon advancement system, and that is a huge treck of progression if starting fresh at RR80 (less painful if getting in on the ground floor at level 32). So sadly, yes, there is not a lot of noticeable things to achieve at the top.
Oddly enough, WAR faces a similar situation of many of the forum goers calling out WARs death. They have been doing so for a long time. Right next to their posts are multiple messages of people saying they’re coming back. WAR has been busier than I’ve seen it in a while.
@Syncaine
btw… rough night bro? ;)
Dude are you in Grief?
That was a house, not a cottage fwiw.
Great fights.
Those and killing greatestdane etc + navyseals a few times just west of there (a few minutes later) were some of the most fun we’ve had in weeks.
Check the email account you use to post here. Or email me if you don’t use that one.
lmao I was in that group you fought, fun fight even though you kicked my ass
You were in the Grief group or my group?