First off, if you are going to address someone, don’t be cowardly and do it anonymously, if for no other reason than to keep your readers from having to decode what you are talking about. Just trying way, way too hard here. If you’ve made up your mind to ‘take a stand’ and not read something, don’t then pretend you just happened to come across something and make a #3000th post about it. I mean come on now, really? What’s next, fingers in ears screaming ‘na na na na I can’t hear you’?
And it’s not like this topic is something new or unique to the MMO genre, even if you toss in a bad analogy to try and make your point. What makes following a sports team so much fun? Rivalries. What do Red Sox fans think of Yankee fans? They suck. What do Redskin’s fans think of Cowboy fans? They suck. Duke fans opinion of North Carolina? They suck. If you had a Sega Genesis, your opinion of the SNES? It sucks. PS3 or Xbox360? Wii. Apple eaters opinion of banana fans? Who really cares.
And that’s the point, without rivalries, without passion, without being, wait for it, a fan, you miss out on a large part of what it means to be part of something. How many of you watch a sporting event between two teams you don’t root for? How memorable is a last-second score when you don’t have a rooting interest in either team?
Constantly being on the sideline and thinking everyone is ‘just neat’ is selling yourself short. Pick a side, get invested, and enjoy all aspects of it. Accept that when your team/console/game is terrible, everyone will half-cheer for the lovable loser while you wallow in misery. Accept that when your team/console/game is on top or doing well, everyone will hate you while you are riding high. It comes with the territory, and in many ways the more people hate, the more indication you have that you are doing something great.
Would anyone be calling WoW McWoW if it had 20k subs? Of course not, because then it would be ‘just another fantasy themepark MMO’. But those millions of subs mean people are going to hate, whether it’s justified or irrational. If DarkFall had launched and fizzled like so many other niche MMOs, would people still continue to hate its existence today? Somehow I doubt it.
Being invested in something is not some “outdated tribal thinking”, it’s called being a fan. And if you don’t like people yelling “Yankees suck” in your direction, don’t go into Fenway Park with your NY Yankees hat on. If you get so easily offended at someone disagreeing with you, don’t put your opinion up on a blog for the world to read and comment on.
Hardcore Casual 
I think you kind of missed the point of „apples and bananas“; which is how Germans say “apples and oranges”. If I like vanilla and you like chocolate, and I write a blog where I muse about vanilla and all the things that you can do with it, and you do the same with chocolate, that does not automatically mean that there is a vanilla –vs- chocolate rivalry. You can explore all the different ways to use chocolate in cooking or simply make better chocolate; but the crux of Tobold’s argument is that some people like vanilla and others like chocolate and all the cheerleading in the world won’t change it.
PS: American baseball references are not universally understood any more than if Tobold had used a Bundesleagea analogy of say Bayern-München versus TSV 1860. I’d wager that a majority of your readers would have to google Fenway park to even find out that it is a baseball venue,
My point was you can’t compare fruit to games, especially ones so heavily invested in community like MMOs. No one ‘roots’ for fruit, but people DO root for games like they do sport teams, hence his analogy was off. One MMO vs another is NOT apples to oranges in this case, but rather like the same apple in two different conditions. Some might like apples harder than others, some might like them more ripe, but we are still talking about an apple.
I like Risk. My wife prefers Monopoly. There is no fan rooting in our house; with Risk and Monopoly banners hanging over the fireplace. We simply have a hard time agreeing on a board game.
MMOs, MUDS, etc. are the same. I’m an old school roleplayer. Roleplayers tend to fall into two categories; realisim junkies and story junkies. Under the Bartle system, I’m an explorer. Under the GDS system, I’m a simulationist. For me, the whole reason for an online world or an RPG is to put myself into the shoes of a knight, pirate, etc. My magic circle is easily broken and it annoys me when it is broken. Obvious “game mechanics” such as agro? Broken. Out of character speech? Broken. Levels? Give me a break! In my view, Mount and Blade is da bomb and everything else – with the exception of permadeath RPI text MUDS – is a cheap theme park.
I can’t play WoW because the circle is broken in 2.5 nanoseconds. DF is not much better; but for other reasons. I’m in the minority. Not only am I in the minority, I’m in a tiny sliver of a niche of a minority. I recognize this and I don’t expect others to have similar tastes; nor do I get out the pom poms when someone else likes something different.
oh really?
http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/326021
And just to bring it back to MMO land, this comment:
“Monopoly. Because I’ve never played Risk b4. lol”
That sounds familiar.
This link forces me to do repeated involuntary facepalms.
again, you’re missing the point. Casual board game selection != passionate videogame choices. MMO players who frequent MMO blogs care a lot about MMOs. I’m sure a competitive board game player has a much stronger opinion about Monopoly v. Risk than you might.
Since you obviously missed it, let’s quote the section of his post where he clearly states who this post is directed at:
“But suddenly I get commenters trying to explain to me how wrong I am, that I just happened to miss the good parts of Star Trek Online, or any other game I don’t like.”
It’s a post to COMMENTERS criticizing him for having an opinion that they don’t share about STO. That’s it.
And the thrust of that point is pretty valid. It’s HIS subjective opinion. It is subjective and personal. Simply having an opposing view doesn’t make his opinion wrong — it makes it different.
It must rub you wrong to still read HIS blog, but know that he doesn’t plan to read yours in return.
That’s the only reason I can fathom how you could completely and utterly miss his point and think it was directed at you.
I suggest you read the comment section on his blog.
I have. And his comment about the “angry fruit” blogger is directed at you, but the post itself is not.
But if your suggestion is to point out that he still reads your blog — then obviously that’s true.
Even if it’s only the posts where you specifically target him and quote him out of context. He is, after all, human and most of us want to know what’s being said about us.
You have huh, so when you wrote:
“It must rub you wrong to still read HIS blog, but know that he doesn’t plan to read yours in return.”
you were thinking what exactly, having of course read that he did read this blog before making his reply, a reply that talks directly about what I wrote? But yea, ‘commentators’ of course. Love that bit about ‘out of context’ too, can I guess that’s as accurate as him not reading the blog according to you?
But yes, it TOTALLY eats at me that I still read a blog for entertainment. Just kills me man, almost as much as Keen not reading my blog anymore. Almost.
It shows. :P
I’ll admit that I missed the reference to a “prominent blogger” as being you. And I would say that the fact I missed that small reference is a pretty good indicator that the post itself wasn’t about YOU as much as it was about people who attack a personal opinion.
Also… “doesn’t plan to read” is not the same as “never reads” your blog. Attack someone directly and they are most certainly bound to eventually read it.
And I think we both know that’s a bit different than being an active reader of your blog.
After reading Tobolds posts recently, he is behaving more emo by the day.
On his latest I’ve stated No he shouldnt have comments. The flow of conversation is ruined on his blog due to him moderating comments because he is called a few names and cant hack it. I mean come on I for one ignore people who are obviously just being a dick and im sure his other readers would as well.
Come on now, you know this site is ‘kind of a big deal’ on the interwebs, who else would a prominent godlike blogger be? Tsk tsk.
Plus how was any of this is a personal attack? That’s the part that confuses me. This post was just to refute the idea that all MMO players should just happily cheer everyone along and not pick sides. I think one of the things that makes sports/consoles/games fun is the whole ‘us vs them’ mentality of it all. It gives a victory/defeat a bit more meaning (however insignificant it may be in the grand scheme of things).
Now of course some take it further than others (god knows I would never get a ‘Yankees suck’ tattoo), some are clearly irrational (Derek Jeter does not suck, the stats just don’t support that), but that’s all part of the deal. Trying to get everyone to play nice and just be happy for everyone is, to me, just downright boring.
And that’s just it in a nutshell, isn’t it? You, the consumate PvPer, thrives on these rivalries, while Tobold, the consume PvEr, shies away from conflict.
I would appreciate you not being so right. Bastard.
The line Tobold draws in the comments is when the disagreement stops being about the opinion and starts being about the person making the opinion.
Basically, ad hominem attacks. Something I have frequently accused you of doing a number of times. The most notable recent example being the ‘Lum the Mad” post that sparked all the e-rage by other bloggers.
Not that I think Scott is some untouchable blogger (that would be hypocritical) but it’s a great example of what pisses people off.
That said, I totally agree with pitrelli that Tobold can get emo at times. The most recent ‘take my ball and go home’ post about removing comments is a great example.
I’ve commented on Tobold’s blog maybe 2-3 times, every time telling him how he’s being ignorant of some other game genre other than diku mud derivatives (his understanding of sandbox games and traditional pen’n’paper rpgs is pretty non-existent). None of my comments have ended up in his blog as he’s decided to delete them. There hasn’t been any ad hominem attacks in those (I know how to make those when I want), other than calling him ignorant. For such a high-profile blogger, his ability to withstand any criticism is, well… go figure.
You and Tobold just need to make out and get it over with, then if you have a baby together it will be a manchildminotaur that plays free realms & Aion (hey someone has to)& eats yellow apples that taste of bananas.
Man this comment ruled
Tobold VS Syncaine is probably the greatest rivalry in the mmo-blog game, they both have a lot of passion, and they both really want the same thing: MMO’s to be the best they can be.
Unfortunatly Tobold’s reaction post today is that he may turn off commenting on his blog all together, this makes me a sad kitten =(
I have to admit, you’re going too far with the Tobold stuff. Clearly both of you have different opinions and often do you quote him again, and again, in an attempt to discredit his opinion and say he’s Blizzard’s pet (not the real quote but you know what I mean).
Now when someone attacks you, you have 2 choices, either adress this issue or ignore it. Tobold ignored it for a while but doesn’t seem like it worked so he decided to adress the issue and then you try to discredit him again.
I’m not a fan of Tobold, nor read his blog (unless required), but he’s entitled to his opinion and your urge to “destroy” him is slightly getting out of hand.
I don’t support or follow any sports teams but I do enjoy watching matches. Not being emotionally involved in the outcome makes it more enjoyable, if less exciting. Excitement and pleasure aren’t the same thing at all, although they can co-exist.
Although some people carry on like adolescents until they keel over, most people mellow. Getting worked up over which game is better than which gets to seem more than a bit silly. I understand the arguments over whether the success of one MMO model may undermine or subvert another, but I am quite confident that in the end there will be more than enough good MMOs to choose from.
After all, just because Avatar is going to become the most financially successful movie of all time doesn’t mean the three arthouse cinemas I frequent are going to close down, or stop showing subtitled Italian neo-realist films from the 40s and the latest festival circuit fads.
I’m going to go on playing a lot of MMOs, be they old, new, theme-park, sandbox, indie or Major, F2P or AAA. And I’m going to go on reading this blog, Tobold’s and Keen’s. They’re all well-written and entertaining, in their various ways.
Yelling “Yankees suck” is one thing.. but throwing a full can of beer at a Yankees fan is out of line.
Yelling “WoW sucks” is one thing.. but accusing someone of being on Blizzard’s payroll because they like a game is out of line.
What happened to Friday Blog Wars? ™ ;-(
The Yankees can suck it. The Cowboys can suck it too.
I’m not a big fan of WoW, but I’m playing for the simple reason that I’ve got friends playing it. It’s my friends that make the game. I’d personally have a better time playing some other game with my friends, but they’re content with WoW and the most important thing to me is hanging out with my buddies.
Occasionally while running some random dungeon I’ll spit out that this is actually my first character in WoW. People tend to be impressed that I can tank so well for not having played before, but I’ll let them know that I’ve tanked in other games. They’ll nearly always ask me if those other games are better than WoW, and without fail I tell them that the ‘best’ game is the one that your friends are playing.
In the end we can debate mechanics and ‘polish’ / ‘easy mode’ all we want, but it really comes down to the fact that in the end these are social games. I can kick the crap out of stuff with or without my friends, but I’m going to have a better time if I’m with my friends.
And the Yankees suck.
I think Tobold is right. Why can’t one have an opinion about something without people pointing and yelling crazy person.
Just because I don’t like EVE or Darkfall doesn’t mean that those playing the game don’t have a legit reason to enjoy it. No wait, lets troll their blog sites and post random crazy stuff about how much I didn’t enjoy their game and call them crazy for playing it on their own forums. Man, that’s the sane thing to do.
If we have a different opinions about a MMO that doesn’t make us rivals, it makes us people who have a difference of opinion. There is no need to sling mud or start hurling insults at each other. MMO’s aren’t competing for a world series or superbowl, they are competing for subs, and if your paying for your game and I’m paying for mine then they MMO companies both win.
I think the problem mostly is that Tobold views his comments more neutrally than other people’s. I will say though that the “TOBLOD PAYD BAI BLIZZ” comment a couple posts ago was both funny and a little over-the-line, because people who aren’t in on the joke (so to speak) will value Tobold’s e-rep less for it.