Brain overloaded with stuff to write after PAX, making it difficult to write anything. Good problem and all that. Expect a little more activity here over the next few days.
First, I’ll just clarify that the post below is not a troll post. Having played a bit of GW2, and having talked to a few devs about it, I just don’t think it’s anything above and beyond current offerings. Not saying it’s a bad game in any way, but I still don’t see the major hype for it. One particular example stands out. As I was in line waiting to play, I was talking to a dev about their dynamic content, and how it would handle population flux, bringing up the faults of WAR’s PQ system. He said the content scales. He said this right as the guy playing the demo got killed by a boss-like mob because he was solo, unable to progress the content. Oops.
The bigger oops here is not that you won’t be able to advance to the final stage of a PQ and get your loot bag before it resets, but that because in GW2, according to this dev, the majority of the content is the dynamic stuff, getting stuck because of a lack of population or interest might be a real hurdle. Dynamic scaling, at least from this demo, is not going to fix all issues.
That speculation aside, the combat system is really what the dev was excited about (the rogue class was playable), but to me it felt very much like DDO, including how important it is to be active. You still target a mob here, rather than actually aim attacks, and while you can dodge away ala DDO, how often or important this is depends very much on the situation. That boss mob that killed the guy in front of me did so rather quickly, and while perhaps some quick dodging would have saved him, I’m not totally convinced. On the other hand, he stood and traded with the numerous centaurs he was fighting and did just fine mowing them down.
My issue with GW2 combat is that it sits in an awkward middle ground between a really active system like Darkfall, where aim and movement always matters, and a traditional system like WoW/Rift, where you stand and trade, with all of the skills balanced around that fact. When I meet someone who loves DDO combat, they will be the first, so it’s odd that GW2 went in that direction. Maybe long-term it will work out, or the system will be overhauled before launch to either be more active or less so, but right now I’m just not a fan.
Hardcore Casual 
If the combat really turns out to be sucky I’ll cry but I’ll reserve my judgement until I actually get to play. Really their Shard v Shard v Shard pvp is what I’m most concerned about because we haven’t heard anything in awhile. That’s the main draw for me with GW2.
In another ‘ugh’ moment, when I was talking to the dev about that, he said a basic copy/paste of the original Alterac Valley pitch from Blizzard: “Players at the cap will do the fighting, while players below the cap will still be able to help out with other tasks!”.
Read: Don’t show up until you are at the cap unless you want to kill wolves for turn-ins (and even then you are taking up a slot). Who knows if that’s really how it will play out, but it was scary that what he said was so close to what AV was pitched as.
Granted, it could very well be something fun at the cap, but if you are looking at GW2 for a PvP fix, knowing that you first have to grind out 50 levels of PvE is not a great selling point. Maybe the devs have other stuff they have not announced yet though.
Not even close to AV dude…. AV was made to be balanced, they have said in interviews that the world v world battles are not supposed to be “balanced” you can go in there and it can be 30 v 300 or it could be 50 v 50, it just really depends on whose there and doing what
btw, you can also lv up in the world v world things, so you don’t have to even touch PVE…
I thought it was much more like Vindictus than DDO. DDO feels like fake action. It’s a standard MMO with dice rolls and chances with action-y flash thrown on top, yet the action-y flash doesn’t feel like it matters. When I dodge in Vindictus, inches from a giant gnoll club, I dodged it. The mob doesn’t cheat by moving forward to hit me visually.
A lot of people at the convention said it really feels like DCUO, which I haven’t played yet… and I don’t plan to until it becomes free. lol SOE.
That’s the best thing I’ve heard about GW2 combat to date. I really, really enjoy the DCUO combat, which I found intuitive and easy within about the first five minutes of trying it.
Good insights. Keep up the good work. We are reading.
I kind of wish I didnt watch the guild wars 2 presentation as it kind of killed my expectations somewhat. I was actually as you pointed out hoping for more reactive combat ala darkfall but without the restricted camera view etc. So to see people with hands on experience talk about DDO and DCUO as comparisons it sucks.
Also when they talked about the dynamic content it was disappointing to hear about the 20 minute timer (as an example) as it doesnt imo make it any different to rifts apart from the fact they will happen at the same place instead of rifts and their unpredictable spawn locations.
Im a bit disappointed overall but it will still be my f2p game of choice I would imagine.
Haha, I totally called that shit imo! Everyone was all, look at how awesome this videeeoo is, omg they said dynamic like 5 times. WHEN YOU CHANGE SOMETHIN BY GOLLY ITS GONNA BE CHANGED!!!!!!11111
Called it!
It was just a bit surreal them preaching about how much GW 2 would shake up the MMO world with dynamic content, you would make a real difference in the world….. oh and then it resets just like every other game so in fact its not too different.
Okay they say they cant have different content running as they wouldnt have enough designers to basically make unlimited content but it smacks in the face of what they are criticising earlier on in their video about mobs and bosses respawning.
I’ll need to see it in action and see how it plays out but I think this could be a bit repetitive and certainly very scripted events running on timers.
I would agree if the status quo were not so ridiculous. In most conventional MMOs you will see absolutely zero difference due to your actions, except for maybe the quest givers talking to you a bit differently. So even though events will cycle at least the world changes for a time.
@ Ravious but again if the difference is 20 minutes instead of 2 is that a massive step in general for MMOs? I’m not too sure.
Also if the game is run almost purely on these events what do you do when an event is resetting? sit and twiddle your thumbs?
As I said I’ll wait until I can play it myself but for me the Q&A session actually squashed a lot of my hopes rather than have me bowled over. Take a look at the combat part which did nothing to actually display what you the player would be doing, instead it added a little humour and showed me that on some fights you wont even get hit.
I have just never understood what the issue is with the gameworld not visibly changing after your character ahs done something within it. I know what my character did. When I pass by a dwarf whose child I saved from gnolls and see him standing there asking someone else to save the same child from the same gnolls, I think “that’s the dwarf whose child I saved from gnolls”. Past tense.
I’ve never had any problems holding multiple instances of an imaginary world in mind simultaneously, and indeed it’s one of the tropes of the genre I appreciate.
That’s a point. On the one hand, the argument is that not enough changes are made to the world, or those changes don’t last long enough to be impactful. On the other, concern is expressed over the possibility of “missing” content by only being able to see portions of event chains.
If the first wish were granted (and to what degree? Noone seems able to define “enough” persistence for it to be meaningful), the second concern would only become more of an issue.
One of the devs I pushed about this dodged the whole ‘reset timer’ question, in that he said different events had different lengths and that they are all dynamic (that word got so abused at PAX it was silly).
My concern was, say I log in, see event A halfway through, join in and ‘complete’ it. Then the next day, I log in again and I again miss the first half. If we are talking a cycle of 2-3 hours for the event, that’s going to cause a lot of people to miss a lot of content, or get unlucky and replay the same few stages (whether they call them that or not, lets be honest, their stages) over and over. Bonus points if the first half is awesome, the second sucks, and only those we are on at the right time see the first half and leave the second for everyone else.
thats my main concern also, are we to repeat this content? I thought towns recognised you on your return. ‘Oh hi your the guy that saved us last time, stick around my spider sense tells me they are coming back in 5 minutes’
I understand you don’t get what all the excitement is about. I do think this is because of the way you view MMOs and derive their value. So I’ll explain why I am excited about Guild Wars 2: story, cooperative play, accessibility, buy to play. I can’t get that anywhere else in the MMO-verse. Dynamic events are certainly a part of that, and I’m interested to see how they work out precisely because the biggest differences between them and PQs/rifts now that Rift is out are that they branch, and that ARE the content and THAT has not been done before.
Not having played the demo yet, I will not comment on the combat except to note that I hated DDO combat but loved Champions Online and Vindictus combat, so not all pseudo-active combat is created equal. I hope it’s more like the latter than the former.
I would be interested to know why, though, you rated GW2 as less of an innovation than Rift (0.9). I’m just not sure how that computes given items like the personal storyline, WvWvW, or even branching events. I mean, if some other MMO is doing that, let me know where it is so I can be playing it now.
I should have explained the .9 part in the post.
Basically it’s because although the dynamic events are better disguised and more interesting (from what we know) than WAR PQs, they are not as reactive in nature as Rift’s… rifts. The more I play, the more I realize how important that is, and GW2 lacking that could really hurt.
Reactive > proactive, and from what I saw/heard GW2 is more proactive in nature, though not as much as WAR.
Also, and I’ll cover this in a later post, it seemed that ever dev was surprised/jealous of how well Rift launched and how solid the game is. If GW2 is of a similar level, that will be good, but again, that’s asking a lot.
This what I don’t understand: how can you possibly talk about innovation when, by and large, most of the shit they’ve talked about and hyped up has been proven to be, at best, a half-truth and at worst only hinted at?
Now, personally, I don’t think Rift is an innovator in the slightest (i.e. it’s done nothing for the genre other than make slightly better PQs, which I’d hardly call innovation.) But at least it’s been released. At least it’s given us the hope that people can actually release a polished MMO; not a good one, perhaps, but polished, working and complete nonetheless (although having said that, Rift comes with a pretty large list of “this will be added after launch,” so complete is subjective.)
Especially after Rift disappointing me horribly (and I thought I’d already set the bar pretty low for myself after Cata and countless MMOs launching) I’m very weary of the marketing bullshit ArenaNet are spouting. We knew after Beta 1 that there was nothing dynamic about Rift in the slightest. And, since the demo was, you know, meant to * demonstrate* what ArenaNet have, I think it’s fair to judge it on that; not on some half-baked promises whose predecessors have already been proven to be false.
Also: doesn’t he mention that events reset after 20 minutes? I’d hardly call that branching or dynamic.
I’m beginning to think that the whole concept of “dynamic content” is unworkable,at least as imagined by players who aren’t satisfied with the level of dynasim on show in Rift. Is it even technically possible to provide a single, non-instanced, open virtual world, available 24/7 to thousands of players, in which content changes and stays changed relative to the previous and ongoing actions of each of those players, while allowing all of them to experience, seamlessly, the same world at the same time? And if it IS technically possible, is it commercially viable?
I think it’s simply too much to ask and I don’t think it will happen. And I’m not even convinced that, were it to happen, the majority of players would want it.
Ugh, I do so disappoint myself when I buy into false premises. Just posting to add that failing a dynamic event is not an end state like failing a quest, since failure conditions lead to different events. In short, if you wipe on a boss, you aren’t blocked from anything because you’ll get to do something else within the same event.
Also, since you changed your url my workplace has blocked you as a social networking site and I have to respond to you via smartphone. Please excuse typos and engrish as a result.
The old URL should still work, or does it redirect?
It redirects. Thanks for the suggestion, though.
Ok meet the first : I liked DDO combat more than current MMOs. Not to say DDO combat was perfect (at the end of the day twitch hardly mattered there) but imho it was not bad
Things I liked about Gw2 combat – element of twitch. Another – Low amount of skills (honestly enough with 3 bars of skills and 2 dozen keybinds already ) – LoL, Dota and some 3d clone of lol do it right- make few skills which matter and concentrate on execution. FPS have 2 skills (shot and throw grenade), M&B has 2 as well (attack and block). They still have plenty fun combat
Seeing 6 or so skills in bar was good .
At the end of the day though I do not really care whether combat in GW2 is x or z. If its fun its enough -and I consider both WoW combat and M&B combat fun . What I look in GW2 is not so much combat , but more dynamic world , less instance and hopefully better world pvp (they are very tight lipped on whole WvWvW thing , but it kinda sounds like daoc rvr – three sides ,big zone, – so far so good).
I agree on the skills part, I like that they don’t throw 20 of them at you. Fewer skills that actually matter is a nice move.
And yea, end of the day, if GW2 is a fun MMO, who cares if it innovates or just improves on ideas. Rift does nothing super surprising (other than doing almost everything really well), but it’s still a great game. If GW2 is like that, that’s good for us players.
My phone also won’t let me reply to individual posts, so a brief summary and then I’ll go (posting this way is a pain, lol)–
@Dril, I guess I don’t see myself as only taking ANet’s word for it because they’ve already delivered, and then some, with GW as far as I’m concerned. So, when they say I’ll have fun, I know ill have fun, and when they say ill feel an impact, I know I will, too, because I already am, in the game they already made, using the same philosophy.
I agree the burden of proof is on them for people who don’t play, or didn’t like, GW1, so be as sceptical as you like. However, I’ll go on record stating that I don’t think you’ll find GW2 very innovative OR fun. But I also think this is less because ANet is misleading you and more because you are looking for something different than they are even claiming to offer. I could be wrong.
Second, yeah, events have different cycle timers. Some are minutes, some hours, some days, some only when certain conditions are met. Or SO THEY SAY.
Third, people are mixing up the personal story where bosses stay dead and buildings stay destroyed, with the dynamic events where the centaurs will eventually re-elect a new chieftain so you can kill him again.
Fourth, @Syncaine, pro-active vs reactive might be a good way to put it, since that is their take on healing after all. I like the idea of pro-active because I like the idea of taking the fight to the enemy rather than putting the fires out after he’s torched my house (rift invasions). Or maybe I’m reading you wrong. It just sounds a lot more like making my own fun in a themepark setting.
Please let this post!
(you are doing some serious phone typing here)
You can still be pro-active with rifts (go close them), but it’s much easier to get a group together to do so when a few randoms join up to defend a town first. It’s also much easier to get a raid going when an invasion announces itself and people react vs asking in chat “anyone want to start a centaur attack force?”.
Subtle differences in some ways, but the in-game impact is pretty huge from what I’ve seen.
@pitrelli, that’s the personal story where they’ll recognize you. Well, you will get some kudos immediately after an event or when you turn in your karma for rewards (pee SO THEY SAY), but long-term, I don’t think so. I could be wrong on that last.
Finally, yeah events are going to be a completist’s nightmare because the point is not to see all the outcomes. Missing the first half of an event, or the second, shouldn’t matter because they’re not like quest chains that way.
However, I would like to see what happens when this goes live and players are really faced with the reality that they don’t get to see everything. It is, in fact, one of my bigger concerns about GW2.
Hmm battle of the storylines SW:TOR vs Guild Wars 2!!!!!!
At PAX, Grubb said that really the only way to see everything in an area is to set up a “watchmen” system where the area is covered 24/7.
Pee? Nice spellcheck there, phone. I meant OR, and I’m really going now. Sorry for the spam.
I have been trying hard to think of GW2 as the next MMO to get me to throw down cash, but the more I read about it, and TOR, the more I realize they are both WOW with a new skin. I want SWG with a new skin, and then I’ll put my cash down.
Oh I would not put SW:TOR in the same sentence as GW2. Dragon Age 2 and SW, sure. Maybe even Superman64 and SW, hey why not. But not GW2. That would be crazy.
I just have to chime in as an old GW player that GW really shines in it’s e-sport capacity. Really, the limitation (only bringing 8 skills) forced and precise interaction in team play. Unfortunately entrance into good pvp became even more difficult as more editions came out and you needed the new skills to be competitive.
That being said, I wouldn’t look to GW’s world for the best gameplay. It’s actually pretty funny that rift beat them to the release of their dynamic events so now they’ve lost that edge. I would look to their pvp and the World vs World areas they’re implementing. Sorry to play the pvp vs pve card, but the system is built around squad pvp and that is where it will shine or fall.
(These comments are based on the design of GW1 which I have not seen changed as I follow GW2)
There’s things that are very exciting to me about GW2 (no dedicated healer class, new death approach) and there’s a few that worry me too (scaling and active combat). but I remain really hopeful that it will turn out to be something new in the MMORPG genre that can make a lasting effect and move us forward. I also think that it’s w-a-y too early to judge anything in terms of balance, mechanics or polish; afaik they’re taking an entire year to work on all these things now, putting the launch into 2012. a lot can happen until then.
Just to clear some things up: there are just some events which “reset” (well, happen again) on a timer. For example, there is an event where a supply caravan travels from one town to the other. This will happen every X amount of time, but IIRC, this X is semi-random, so it won’t happen every day on the same time, or something.
Most events are based on the outcome of other events, not just on a timer. If a group of centaurs occupies a town, it won’t reset, with the centaurs just being gone in an instant. The town will stay occupied untill people reclaim it. When the town is occupied, the centaurs will start building fortifications. When these are done, they might go out to raid other towns or places. This will probably happen on a timer, but again it’s a random timer, and it might even not happen at all before the town is reoccupied. But it’s not like ‘hey, I log on yesterday at the same time, and it’s exactly the same event, I missed the first half again!’.