Another Warhammer rant, add it to the pile.

Rant on carebears incoming, you have been warned.

Why don’t people understand that Warhammer Online plans to be a PvP focused game? Again, PvP focused. Player vs Player. The focus of Warhammer will be to fight other players. The gameplay is based around the assumption that people like to PvP, that they enjoy PvP. We good on that? Ok, moving on.

If you HATE PvP, you won’t like Warhammer. “I plan to avoid PvP” should be translated to “I’m not looking forward to Warhammer Online, it won’t offer what I want”. If you make a list of things you enjoy in an MMO, and near the top you put crafting, raiding, exploration, questing, etc, and PvP is missing from your top 5, Warhammer is not the game for you.

On almost every single Warhammer post on any blog I read, I see a comment or two basically stating “I don’t like PvP and I’m looking forward to WAR, hopefully I will like it”. I sincerely hope you HATE Warhammer. I mean absolutely HATE it. Because if carebear Joey likes Warhammer for its fun questing, crafting, and easy solo nature, that means everyone looking forward to Warhammer for it’s impact PvP will hate it.

They don’t mix people, and you know what, THAT’S OK! There are plenty of solo-friendly MMOs out now, one of them being the current 800 pound gorilla called WoW. It’s very solo friend, easy epics abound, and it’s a great casual game. LoTRO, EQ2 are also great PvE games, along with countless others. The triple A fantasy PvE market is well represented, no worries.

The most upsetting rumor out of Warhammer’s beta was that it was WoW-like, a rumor that was addressed and emphatically denied by Mythic. If (big if, I know) they deliver on their mission statement, the Warhammer Online gaming experience should be radically different than WoW, at least in areas where it counts; game balance and goal focus. PvE games balance skills/classes/items around PvE content, and feature PvE as the end-game (raiding). PvP games are the exact opposite; balance is designed around PvP, with PvE balance being an afterthought. People PvP for the enjoyment of PvP first, and any rewards that come from it are secondary. If you currently ‘grind’ PvP in order to achieve some items/skills to help you progress in PvE, you have the wrong mindset.

I can only imagine the general forum one week after launch. Right below and above and in-between the “Warhammer stole it’s lore/look from Warcraft!” posts we will see “Warhammer needs more solo-friendly quests!”, followed by “I’m level 50 with nothing to do but PvP, fix it Mythic!”. Why are so many people so hell bent on trying to make a PvP game what they want? Why is the “It’s a PvP focused game” message so hard for some to understand or accept?

About SynCaine

Former hardcore raider turned casual gamer.
This entry was posted in EQ2, Lord of the Rings Online, MMO design, PvP, Warhammer Online, World of Warcraft. Bookmark the permalink.

41 Responses to Another Warhammer rant, add it to the pile.

  1. LadyPao says:

    Wait a minute. Didn’t you just come *back* from vacation??? What’s with the cranky rant so soon? lol. Maybe you should slow down on the ‘catching up’ on the blog sites. *Carebear hug /lick*

  2. soccer_fan says:

    “Why is the “It’s a PvP focused game” message so hard for some to understand or accept?”

    Because world+dog is tired of WoW but there’s not a good replacement, and any new fantasy MMO could potentially be more fun (better). I’d wager that there are fewer people in the MMO realm that are into PvP and they’re not complaining about how some new PvE game doesn’t do PvP because they’re all waiting on WAR.

  3. Pingback: Interesting rant - Warhammer PVP « Great Green Hunter

  4. Knaledge says:

    Perhaps you should request access to the beta? It’s still under a very strict NDA but at least you’d be able to base these poss on personal experience.

    I think you’re in for a surprise (PvE wise) with WAR. A lot of the latest public info expresses a deep interest in drawing as large an audience as possible and the developers have made it all too clear they intend on catering to PvP players primarily – but still feel there’s enough solid content for “”PvE” players to enjoy.

    The issue you’re making much to do over is actually ironic. The mission is to draw people that may not like PvP for any number of various reasons into a game where PvP is the focus.


    To change their opinion of PvP… “done right”.

    You seem to treat this motivation as something to be shunned. If you truly wish for this title to succeed, perhaps you might look into focusing your efforts on pointing out what might ATTRACT PvE players to (as you claim) such a heavily PvP-centric title. Would it not be best overall if many players who had never been interested in experiencing PvP are finally drawn in by something so new/unique/different that they “make the switch”?

    Consider that before whipping up a reply. In the meantime, I’ll see what I can do.

  5. Tobold says:

    Good post, here is my reply. In short, I agree that it is either you or Joey carebear who is going to hate WAR. And I think that there are far more Joey carebears than people like you. And as profits are linear with number of players, Joey carebear will probably win this one.

  6. syncaine says:

    I’m not saying I hope the PvE in WAR is terrible, actually I hope it is as good if not better than WoW. Even major fans of PvP take breaks to PvE all the time, and why would we not want a solid game for that as well. Plus casual PvP fans that play more PvE will also be entertained. The rant was more aimed at those that hate PvP, and will ONLY focus on PvE. If PvP is such a pain to those people, I don’t think WAR will be the game for them. I fully agree that a large amount of PvE fans will play WAR, and hopefully see how much fun well designed PvP can be.

    The real difference to me is whether you balance and focus on PvP content or PvE content. WoW does PvE, and I hope WAR will do PvP.

  7. tenfoldhate says:

    You touch on a GREAT point:

    “People PvP for the enjoyment of PvP first, and any rewards that come from it are secondary. If you currently ‘grind’ PvP in order to achieve some items/skills to help you progress in PvE, you have the wrong mindset.”

    * Except in games like WoW where players are trained like Pavlovian dogs to grind for that epic carrot at the end of the stick–the old dev’s clever filler in lieu of pumping out new content.

    I enjoy PvE and PvP equally. However, when you look at what is considered “endgame” PvE becomes tedious and dull while PvP remains fun and clearly comes out on top. One of the things that excites me very much about Warhammer is the fact that what would traditionally be a PvE quest, will incorporate elements of PvP into it–whether you’re bolstering your faction’s defenses or gathering supplies. Very neat idea and I can’t wait to see if it’s well executed.

    As you stated, people PvP for enjoyment. The act is the reward in itself and any other rewards are secondary. Whereas PvE is purely focused on the destination, not the journey. I mean, what’s the playability of a PvE raid/instance before it gets dull? I’d say 5 to 10 times? Sure they’re fun to revisit every once in a while, but how quickly would raiding disappear if the “L337” items weren’t attached? You just can’t say the same for PvP because it’s everything PvE is not at this point in MMO history–unscripted, spontaneous, and ever changing.

  8. Snafzg says:

    My understanding is that EA Mythic wants to appeal to the widest possible audience with WAR, and even though the game takes great strides to include meaningful RvR, they aren’t completely ignoring the PvE elements.

    Even at tier 4, I imagine they’ll have PvE-only content available for players who choose not to RvR or mix things up between RvR and dungeon raiding. And even if you look at their planned implementation of city sieges, there will still be a fair amount of NPC interaction between the attackers and defenders. It won’t be just players defending their city.

  9. Snafzg says:

    Doh, I hadn’t refreshed the page in a couple hours before making that comment. My bad! ;)

  10. syncaine says:

    All good Snafzg. And yes, Mythic stated that even in the top tier areas, there will be PvE content, although percentage-wise much less than PvP content. I believe in one podcast they showed each tier, and as you go up, the PvP areas increase while the PvE areas decrease, which to me sounds good.

    As for NPCs in city sieges, I’m all for it, as long as it does not turn into what AV in WoW is now, players ONLY fighting the NPCs and ignoring each other, but it would take a huge f-up to design another system like that…

  11. Ras says:

    Mouth-breathing 12 year-old gankers will make sure that many adults such as myself stay far away from War. I really don’t care, I hope every one of them leaves WoW for War.

    I’ll applaud the e-peen flexer’s departure, then go back to raiding and hanging out with the many real-life and online friends I play with in WoW. I play WoW to unwind and relax, as I get enough stress in RL. Being forced to defend resources I’ve worked hard to gain in my limited playtime against those with much more free time isn’t very fun to me.

    So keep on with the “Carebear” bull so that the millions of us stay away from you and your attitude. I hope Mythic makes a robust /Spit engine for you PvPtards.

  12. tipa says:

    PvP is a niche market, and WAR is being developed for the mass market. I expect the TRUE PvPers will migrate to the PvP servers, and the PvErs will go to the PvE servers and do minimal PvP, as required by quests.

  13. Moroagh says:

    Warhammer has an interesting prior fan-base. There is both the war-gaming and the pen&pencil RPG folks. Funny enough in my experience these are completely distinct crowds.

    The war gamers like the warfare aspects and the pnp crowd likes the heavy lore, the RP and the collaborative combat.

    In a way Warhammer may have it worse then WoW with prior expectations.

    I certainly come from many years of Warhammer RP. If the profession/class system is very thinned down, or if the lore is poorly adopted, I’d be disappointed.

    However I can see the war-gamer crowd, or even just the MMO PVP crowd who don’t have prior Warhammer attachments to absolutely love the game even if it completely dumps the lore etc.

    It’s tricky.

    In the end I wish for two things really: Warhammer being a great game, if it’s not a great game for me, so be it. And for the word “carebear” to die horrible deaths along with cheap stereotypes that don’t help anyone make games great.

    But I do disagree with both you and Tobold here. I think one can make a great PVP game and a great PVE game in one, and that allows sensible cross-over and service a wide range of playing styles without hurting one or the other significantly. I also think that accessibility is different from a game being dull or stupid or easy. But it’s easy to bash “carebears” as dumbing down games or destroying PVP.

    I’m not too worried about RvR in Warhammer though. That horn has been harped so hard that they really need to deliver. If anything they can surprise by having PVE that is worthwhile as well.

    The only thing I hate is people keeping up the hate for other gamers basically, but heck, I’m a “carebear”.

  14. syncaine says:

    I’m fairly sure WAR won’t have PvE/PvP servers. Hard to have a PvP-focused endgame on a PvE server…

    As for niche, DAoC was far above niche at its time, having similar numbers to EQ when both games peaked. While it would be foolish to expect WoW-like numbers for WAR, I fully expect it to be well above the current niche numbers.

  15. Wilhelm2451 says:

    Well, DAOC peaked at about 250K users while EQ hit 550K, so while DAOC was more than niche, it still wasn’t up to EQ.

    But, in the end, that is irrelevant. Most of the MMORPG player base is now made up of people who have WoW as their first game and EA/Mythic knows it. If they could only attract a DOAC peak population, they would probably consider the game a modest success at best. They have to pull from the WoW market to win big, and your “no carebears in the pool” attitude will surely not be the way to get there.

    And, again, you seem to be stomping your feet and blaming other players for decisions made by the game company. That just isn’t reality, so please get over it.

  16. David says:

    PvP MMO games have proven to be an impossible business model to maintain. So by all means have your pvp game, it will last about a year, maybe two before the servers are shut off. That is, of course, unless they change it to a PvE only variant similar to how UO did…

  17. syncaine says:

    I think you are misunderstanding the post Wilhelm. I’m not arguing how Mythic will implement PvP in WAR (not in this post anyway); it was a post about player expectations for WAR, which Mythic has little control over. And what control they do have, they have tried and tried again to make it very clear where their focus lies, and that is PvP. It’s certain players that seem to be having a difficult time understanding this.

    And again, the post is not an all out ban on PvE minded players, but rather those that play exclusively for PvE, and get all worked up over the thought that ANY kind of PvP could intrude on their gameplay. It’s that ‘I pay 15, so don’t bother me’ type of player that I hate in an MMO. Certain factors, even in a post-WoW MMO world, still apply here, one of them being player interaction.

  18. Ras says:

    PvP is the only player interaction? Ha.

    I’ll remember that when I’m on vent with 24 friends tonight.

    As for the “I pay my own $15, don’t bother me kid.” type of player you hate, that’s me. I play the game to relax and socialize with friends, not entertain some random idiot ganker’s sociopathy.

  19. Keystone says:

    Ras reminds me of the guy on WoW that talks down to other players and acts like a dick to those he doesn’t know, or aren’t from his guild.

    It’s when players don’t have to be accountable for their actions do we see people exhibit attitudes as such. I’m sure IRL Ras is a nice person, but I believe the removal of personal accountability displays a variant attitude- usually pessimistic- not found normally.

    I don’t mean any offense Ras, it’s just my personal observation. This is why I prefer games with open PvP, because it forces people to be polite to one another or face the consequences.

  20. sid67 says:

    Here is my problem with MMORPG PvP in general…

    The best PvP is based on skill and pits one players ability against another players ability. However, the very nature of MMORPG works against the idea of skill vs. skill by rewarding players who excel with better gear. In other words, the rich get richer as the playing field is made more uneven with certain players gaining a gear advantage over other players. In extreme cases, the difference is less about skill and more about time investment. By contrast, the RTS and FPS genres have a far more level playing field at the start of every match since everyone has an equal starting position. In other words, its fair and always about skill and teamwork.

    In a MMORPG however, the barrier of entry is so high for newcomers that all they do is get owned until they get better gear. The net effect is that MMORPG PvP is often only enjoyable for those that are geared for it. If your first experience with something is simply getting pwned over and over, you are not likely to enjoy it and the idea of getting better gear becomes a grind. Thus, the design of several PvP encounters act more as a race for resources or objectives than in any actual PvP warfare.

    Ultimately, I think that’s what is seriously flawed in MMORPG PvP. The actual game design will always provide for gear upgrades and those upgrades will always create an unlevel starting position. As long as the starting position is unlevel, most newcomers will find the experience unenjoyable. Think of it this way, in an RTS or FPS, the more experienced player already has an edge in a match because they are more experienced. Now imagine if they also started out with more health or resources. That’s MMORPG PvP in a nutshell.

    The counterargument that players who PvP “earn the advantage” is not productive. It’s a game of skill vs. skill and your “advantage” comes from the experience you have gained playing the game. In a PvE scenario, gear progression makes a ton of sense. Players should have worked their way through earlier content to equip themselves for more difficult encounters. In PvP however, this is simply unfairly augmenting an already good player with an even bigger advantage. This is an inherent flaw in MMORPG PvP and imho the reason that it only appeals to the most dedicated players.

  21. Ras says:

    I see, Keystone. My playing the game for which I pay on my own terms somehow makes me a dick? Didn’t see that one coming.

    Anyway, I’m a notorious care bear in-game. I help anybody in trouble, regardless of faction, guild, level, whatever, to the point that it’s a joke to my friends. I don’t care,

    I’m not a role-player, I see the other human being at the keyboard rather than the pretty, pretty pixels. There’s enough nasty crap in the world without me adding even a tiny bit more. It’s especially worriesome to me in a game like Warcraft where the other player might be 25 years younger than me.

    That’s just my philosophy, the main reason why I’ll never play a game that forces PvP.

  22. syncaine says:

    Ah nice post Brainclutter, although the one point of contention (the co-op server) is unconfirmed. Do you remember how many co-op servers DAoC had? I don’t even remember the server type, so it could not have been that many. I do remember Mordred being a bit of a clusterfuck though.

  23. Bonedead says:

    God do I love you sir. I know exactly what you mean and it fucking infuriates me. I used to be a lot more passionate about MMOs and their release a few years back. Then I began to realize that the good old boy network of PvE carebear douchebags had the agenda of trying to turn every friggin game into a PvE heaven. I fucking hate them so much. They look at PvP as a breeding ground for bad people, similar imo to the way extreme religious people try to convert everyone in typical asshole-like fashion. It’s fucking stupid and I’m fucking tired of it. I can’t wait to rape them, I really can’t wait to make them quit and whine on the message boards.


  24. Bonedead says:

    So that first comment was a reaction the your blog post, this ones more directed at the comments, because they kind of piss me off too.

    Ras seems like a holier than thou dick, imo. Just recently in WoW I was taking a Warrior into Deadmines because I was asked to tank, asked to tank. Then on our way down the Ras-type priest who knows fucking everything, obviously, he is a priest you know, decides that me using a 2hander is severely lowering our chances of successfully beating the biggest newb dungeon in the game. Because I’ve never done it before with multiple other warriors, I haven’t seen my brother use a 2h all the way into his 50s being a tank in instances. But whatever, I was reminded why I fucking hate PvEing.

    Everyone’s saying PvP players are such a niche market. But if you think about it, every game that ever showed a glimmer of hope to a PvPer eventually turned into a PvE fagbear heaven. As Forrest Gump would say, we PvPers are the raccoons that your momma shoos of the porch with a broom. You try so hard to keep us out of your games, you can’t deny it.

    As for people saying that no ones going to want to leave WoW to go play Warhammer because it’s so PvP hellbent, you’re fucking wrong. I know you are. It’s a fact. See, PvEers like to kill monsters, they like a large certainty that they will win, they liked static responses from their opponents, because you know, they’re bad at games. Whereas PvPers, for the most part, are the opposite. Don’t get me wrong, I know about the fucking angsty 12 year olds who kill grays and think that makes them good. But those kids eventually quit, it’s a fact. My point is, as a PvEer, you probably weren’t drawn in to a game such as Counter-Strike. Which some would argue is PvP. Sure, maybe a few of you tried it, maybe even loved it, but you loved it because of your favorite pub server and playing with the same people and probably stacking teams with them because hey, you payed for admin and you have to win like a pve fagbear.

    Tons of Counter-Strike players have dipped into WoW, if you didn’t know. Many of whom eventually stopped playing CS due to WoW. They may be the level 70s in uber duber Epic gear (you know the gear better than yours even though you love killin monsters) sitting in Ironforge or Org flappin their jaws in the friggin Trade channel. I didn’t say PvPers were all people you’d ever want to know, but that doesn’t make them nonexistent. But yeah, there are a ton of people in WoW who like beating other people because they know that they are better. And as another commenter above me stated, a lot of people are tired of WoW.

    On a side note, more of a carebear vs. me note, I’d just like to mention something that some people either might not have encountered, have erased from their memory due to its unpleasantness, or don’t remember ever seeing: When PvPers decide to PvE, we’re still better than you at it. Because we’re already good, we don’t train against a dummy that doesn’t move.

    Alright, I’m done, sorry for invading your comments syncaine I just really hate the PvE mentality for the most part, a lot of them are huge fucking dicks and they aren’t even aware of it. Whereas people like me, are aware that we’re dicks, and we’ll fight you about it too (in game, we’re not retarded), unlike some.

    See you either out on the BATTLEFIELD killing or on the FORUMS crying.

  25. syncaine says:

    Right well both sides have their extremists, and both are somewhat wrong IMO. Not saying you have to be at the happy middle at all times, as I believe you can and should sway one way or the other, but it can’t be to the uber extreme. My hope is WAR sways to the PvP side, while leaving WoW to continue swaying to the PvE side. If both sides have a solid representative, I think both camps will be happy. We will see.

  26. Darkmoth says:

    Games are a business, skilled players doesn’t bring in the shekels, sub counts do. It’s irrelevant how good you and your ilk are, what’s important is…how MANY of you there are. How big is your market segment. See where this is going?

    Just give it up about niche games being viable, niche games only happen on niche development budgets, and you PvPers are just as spoiled as us PvEers. Shadowbane. Fury. Yeah, they were buggy POSes, but that’s what you get on a niche budget. You don’t get a WoW or a WAR when the publishers know they are going to attract 150k people MAX. If you DO get a WoW or a WAR you can be damn sure they want Billy HappyJoy to play – they need to pay back the millions they spent on making a polished, bug-free game.

    Screw what the developers say. The devs are on a salary just like you and me, and you certainly don’t get to make policy for YOUR boss. How many times does a game have to be published in BETA quality before people realize that the money calls the shots, not the vision. And what does the money say? “The more players the better”.

    What’s ironic is, the more “skilled” you are, the rarer you are, the smaller your market segment and the less likely you are to find a game that targets you. If you DO find a game that is intended for you, it won’t run two consecutive hours without crashing, or will be developed in VGA colors. You won’t play it, and it will die. You don’t get the massive gameworlds and deep designs, because they COST TOO MUCH to rely on a relative handful of malcontents.

    “Hardcore” PvPers are the Flight Simmers of the new millenium. The genre has moved past you, instead of Falcon 4 and Jane’s Longbow you will get MS Flight Sim X. It’s laughable to think you’ll be able to negatively affect anyone’s gameplay. You are simply the boogyman under the bed. Chained and caged, you will rage harmlessly while the sheep who pay the bills point at you and say “how scary!”.

    Get over it already.

  27. Bonedead says:

    I would love to follow you around in any game, no matter how gay it is, and just kill you over and over.

    You seem to have confused PvPers with PvEers. I don’t want to claim to speak for all PvPers, but I know I don’t need massive gameworlds or deep designs, KISS. Shit, my computer has trouble running a lot of these new shiny top of the line graphics games already.

    I think it’s amusing that you, in your carebear state, have already tried to (possibly subconsciously) claim Warhammer as your PvE lovefest. I say this because of what you say here: “You don’t get a WoW or a WAR when the publishers know they are going to attract 150k people MAX.”

    Isn’t Warhammer centered on PvP? That’s what I heard.

    I seriously cannot wait for this game to come out. I don’t even really want to play it, I’m a bit more interested in Conan. But you know what, nothing would make me happier than to be the boogyman chained and caged in the PvP zones, while you and your ilk are cowering in your PvE zones looking out at me shaking in your little epic booties.

  28. Hemet Donago says:

    I’m hoping that the sort of PvPers I despise– the ones who use the term carebear as an insult and want to be able to gank level 1s in the starting zone– will all go to AoC, which will dwindle and die over a pathetic 1 year span, since it’s filled with wolves and no sheep. And hopefully people like me, who enjoy PvP and PvE and think the whole idea of “carebears” vs “hardcores” is silly, will go to WAR. I just want to hang out with my friends and have a bit of fun, maybe kill a stunty or two; who wants the kind of people who infest Fury around? Seriously!

  29. Darkmoth says:

    Yeah, you say that, but are you playing Shadowbane? EvE? Those are the only games where “killing me over and over” has any teeth as a threat.

    Are you going to be able to “kill me over and over” in WAR? I don’t mean have your army acquire more strategy points than my army. I don’t mean gain more bonuses than turning in more bear asses than me. I don’t mean ranking higher on some leaderboard. Can you, in WAR, be anything more than a passing diversion that *I* choose when and where to engage? Can you be a threat that I fear? Who’s in control – me, the sheep, or you the wolf?

    I don’t claim WAR as my PvE playground, I actually like consensual PvP. I love RvR. I’m still a carebear, because I will never really *risk* anything in PvP. So you tell me, is WAR your game or mine?

  30. Bonedead says:

    I’d still say that it’s mine. You’re assuming things about me that go along with the PvP “hardcore” stereotype, as I’m sure I did about you.

    All I want to do is PvP, I love competing with other people in fair fights. I guess the point I wanted to get across is that I’m tired of games planning on being designed with people like me in mind slowly eroding it’s sharp corners into round ones. I understand that money talks, but, it isn’t money’s fault, it is still the players pushing for the changes.

    I’m gonna be on the other side of the fence than you. I won’t be racing to turn in more bear asses, just the asses of your team mates and your own, if you wander into my territory.

    It would be quite interesting if we could coexist in this game. But usually to “coexist” comes at my expense, and it sucks that people want to take my fun away.

  31. Darkmoth says:

    Well, I hear that. I think WAR’s designers have their work cut out for them, catering to the lone wolf sort you seem to be, and the RvR zerger I certainly am. However, I don’t think the game can really be successful without both types of people.

    As far as PvE, yeah I’d like the option. Hell, I’m on the north side of 40, I don’t *always* want to be pitted against caffienated 18-year old reflexes. But there’s no question in my mind that the PvE is and should be a side dish.

  32. Ras says:

    Wow, Bonedead. I’m holier-than-thou because I choose not to PvP and am kind to strangers? Fuck you. Get some anger management therapy, loser. You come across as a rude, heartless twat.

    People will play these games however the fuck they want. You want less “corners rounded off” in game design? Try not perpetuating the PvP-asshole stereotype that many people choose to avoid.

  33. Wilhelm2451 says:

    Well Syncaine, that is a pretty fine distinction you seem to be making, only going after the “$15 and leave me alone” PvE crowd.

    Unfortunately, that battle has been fought and lost already. It was the end result of the “force players to group” vs. “I should be able to solo” conflict that WoW seems to have resolved in favor of solo content.

    Now everybody seems to feel that you should be able to solo to level cap. You pay your $15 and you can turn off all channels and be left alone. The ability to experience the game on your own terms if you like is often listed as one of WoW’s strengths.

    So now, in the speculation about what WAR will be, are you suggesting that it will not only be forced PvP above a certain level, but forced grouping as well? No solo content?

    That would make WAR a pretty niche game in today’s market, and somehow I do not think that EA is going to accept a niche game.

  34. syncaine says:

    Lost huh? So because WoW is a success, all MMO’s after must follow the same formula, and nothing else will work? I don’t think even you believe that Wilhelm.

    WoW is but one solution, and for PvE only at that. Personally I don’t care much how PvE is implemented on WAR, although Mythic has already stated it will be possible to solo to the cap, so there is not much to discuss on that.

    And again you jump to conclusions over something that is not there. I never stated I want forced PvP in WAR, since Mythic has already stated thats not the case. Forced is a very strong word, and a foolish one to throw around. Now if you would like to debate the level of encouragement to PvP in WAR, we can do that based on the information available. Or the perceived benefits of grouped PvE vs solo PvE in WAR, but again all we can go off is the information available.

    Also the very tired “EA will make WAR WoW-like to make money” argument is old and pure speculation. They want a successful game that will cater to their target audience. If EA truly believed solo PvE content was the ONLY way to make a profit, they would have pulled the plug on WAR a long time ago, as no matter the speculation, no one can deny that WAR is PvP focused, both in design and in its marketing. Knowing that, it is somewhat foolish to think any of us know the market better than an entire company, one who has invested the amount of money EA has in WAR. Clearly EA believes a PvP based MMO done right can be profitable, and until WAR is released and flops, the whole ‘niche’ argument is a waste of time.

  35. Wilhelm2451 says:

    I did not say it had to follow the EXACT WoW model, just that WoW has shown that accessible solo content is a very lucrative aspect to the game. You can make a game distinctly different from WoW and still follow some of the high level lessons that WoW has born out. Cloning WoW would be foolhardy, but so would ignoring the lessons of WoW. The knee-jerk negative response at any mention of WoW doesn’t do much good. You cannot pretend WoW never existed.

    If Mythic has already said it will be possible to solo to the level cap, then it seems you are the one swimming up stream. The ability to do that seems to be catering to the “$15 a month and leave me alone” player you are railing against. It also seems to confirm that yes, the battle against allowing solo play has been lost, something I DO believe, thank you very much.

    As for “forced PvP,” I have read here about some plan for PvE content to become more and more rare as people level up in WAR. Perhaps that was speculation. But I have already experienced that in EVE, where solo play, in the form of missions, leads you to a point where you have to be prepared for PvP if you want to continue to advance. It is a great way to weed out the PvE players, which should make you happy.

  36. syncaine says:

    And they area applying the lessons, hence the ability to solo to the cap. The difference being its not the best way to hit the cap, as it is in WoW. WoW punishes you for grouping while questing in many ways, leading to people soloing due to it being faster. In WAR it’s possible, just not optimal. So they are not catering to the solo player, just letting them play along as well. You seem to imply it’s a black and white issue, you can either solo or you can’t, which it clearly is not.

    Same with the issue of forced PvP. You yourself acknowledge that PvE content becomes a smaller part of the game as you progress, but again smaller does not mean zero. So instead of 90% of a zone being PvE, at the high end it might be 20%. The player is left to decide if they want to see 20% of the game at the end, as in EVE if you PvE, or if you want to see more, by actually taking a risk (however small) and venturing into PvP. It’s a choice, nothing forced.

  37. Wilhelm2451 says:

    Now you’re getting a bit silly. Saying something is “possible, just not optimal” is leaving a loophole the size of Texas in your statement. It is, and always has been, possible to get to level cap in EverQuest solo as well. They do not cater to the solo player either. Am I right to draw the conclusion that WAR will be as painful to solo? That sort of choice ranks up there with “you can pay your taxes or go to jail,” which is to say, no real choice at all.

    The broad lesson to which I alluded is that players ought to have something viable to do if they do not have huge blocks of time in which to play. Forming groups adequate to most group tasks is often a chore that takes longer than the task itself, which is why solo content is easiest option.

    If WAR has an answer to that issue aside from solo content, I would be interested to hear it.

    But if the answer is, “tough luck solo players,” which seems to reflect your own statement and sentiment (you hate those “$15 a month and leave me alone players”) then I would be willing to bet money that within a year there will be a sudden influx of solo content to try and boost subscriptions.

    On the narrowing of PvE content as levels rise, you mention risk. I have not seen anything on the level of risk that PvP would require. What does it look like at this point?

    If it is at the EVE end of the spectrum, full looting of corpses, as I am sure the hard core end of the PvP player base hopes it will be, it will end up being another “wolves and sheep” scenario, and the sheep will find safer pastures and the wolves will bitterly complain about how the sheep ruined their game.

    On the other hand, if it is at the WoW end of the spectrum, where death has little consequence, I rather expect to hear a lot about how EA betrayed the PvP community, but they might actually get more people making the transition from PvE to PvP.

  38. syncaine says:

    Not having actually played, I can’t say for sure, but everything I know about the game leads me to believe is should be somewhat easy (although certainly harder than it is in 2.3 WoW) to hit the cap. I think the main thing Mythic is trying to emphasize is that you can level just as effectively, if not more so, in a PvP environment. In WoW you either level up by grinding quests, or stop and go PvP. WAR is going to combine PvP with character growth. I also believe in one podcast it was stated that the OPTIMAL way to level would be to combine the PvE and PvP aspect, as focusing on just one, while possible, is not optimal. I guess the real question will be just how big a difference the optimal path has over just focusing on one, be it PvP or PvE.

    I think public quests are a way to give players something small and quick to do, if they are pressed for time. I would also say that PvP itself is a rather quick way to jump in and get involved, especially if your guild already has a PvP group formed, as was often the case in DAoC or even EVE now. I think everyone at times is restricted by time, so that type of content must be present. At the same time, I just don’t think a MMO should completely cater to that style with an overabundance of content, or go so far as to make it the optimal way to progress, as WoW did. If we are making the assumption that such content exists for a quick burst of play, one would think it would last those players with very limited time for quite a while. What I don’t like to see is a complete path one to cap for the anti-social player, as WoW now provides. It just breeds a bad community, as players reach the cap solo and then are pushed into grouping (be it PvP or raiding), and bring that ‘all about me’ attitude into it. One glance at AV general chat or any PUG proves that point quite well.

    As for risk, I don’t know (has it even been revealed?) what the risk will be in PvP. I know it won’t be EVE-like, since WAR is more item based than EVE. If it is WoW-like in that regard, then sadly the PvP quality of WoW will shortly follow, but I have a hard time believe Mythic will go that route, especially considering they have already seen what that kind of system has done to WoW.

    BTW, the sheep in EVE have had 4 years to leave, yet sheep make up the majority of the player base, so that whole ‘greener pastures’ thing is somewhat of a myth. A solid game will retain its players regardless of any one system, as long as it works. UO PvP did not really work (for the sheep), EVE’s does. They have basically the same PvP system in terms of a death penalty, but since the surrounding systems are so greatly different, it works for EVE.

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  40. wansai says:

    I think you might have possibly been looking at the situation in the wrong light. Possibly.

    Good PVE doesn’t exclude good PVP. It doesn’t have to. You ARE right to say that it’s OK to have a good pvp and somewhat ok PVE if the focus is a PVP game. However, I think you will find more developers trying to do both because that is where the money is at; catering to both crowds.

    It’s also smarter for Mythic to try to appeal to a broader audience through pve, and entice them with pvp. In this way it creates a bigger base for pvp battles as well as contributes to their pocket books.

    I mean even when I quit DAOC a while ago, they were already starting to really push PVE through to make it more palatable and easier. Catacombs really had some nice quests (if you read them) and the quest progression was actually pretty good. I truly believe that with the right amount of resources, a good pve and pvp game can be made.

    In today’s world, I think to discount either one is a big mistake. People want both whether they’ve thought about it or not. Otherwise, you’ll have the same group of people as before playing for pvp while the newer players (WoWers) in the MMO field will just give it a pass after an hour playing.

    Sure it is a risk to do this, but this is the only way the MMO industry is going to grow. By taking chances and setting their sights higher than they had previously (see DAOC). For mythic, I truly believe that they have all the talent and the necessary experience to do both well. Some of the examples you gave in a previous post were of MMOs having not specialized in either one yer. Mythic has expertise and experience from the pvp (RvR) side and Catacombs and Labyrinth really shows that with a little more effort (and being able to rebuild from the ground up), they can do it quite well.

    I see it as lessons Mythic has learned from their DAOC years (and from competitors) that they can now put into action whereas DAOC was already a complete system with all its exising limitations.

    It certainly can be done and I think players at this point in time are correc to expect “more” from these developers.

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