First things first, this is a ‘kettle calling the pot black’ type of post. I know, but that’s the joy of running a one man, type whatever blog. Feel free to skip the post if this somehow raises your blood pressure to unhealthy levels.
With that out of the way, I’m a bit confused on the blind hate for Darkfall. Is a hardcore PvP MMO somehow going to invade your home and steal your children? Does it physically abuse you in the ear? God help us all, something not WoW is entering the MMO space, grab the pitchfork and burn it down.
Most people don’t like PvP, let alone anything close to hardcore PvP, this is not news to anyone. 11 million bigmacs playing WoW clearly shows us that, we get it. Most people enjoy beating neon foozles while wearing power ranger suits, and god forbid ANYTHING gets between them and the foozle loot piñata. Cool for 95%, but not 100%.
Why are all the bigmacs so threatened by a new game, which at best will peak at 100k users? No one is going to force you to play it; you can safely remain in whatever MMO world you enjoy. Repeatedly pointing out that feature x will turn off the majority of users is also not news, the very basis of the game already turned 95% of them away. The game aims for that other 5%, and whether or not it’s a success will depend on their opinion, and not casual gamer Joe’s.
I’m not saying Darkfall is going to be gods gift to MMO PvP, hell I’m not even sure it’s going to be close to playable come release (whenever that happens), but to continue to rail on and on about how this won’t work because WoW does it different, or because Shadowbane failed clearly the only thing MMOs are good for is foozle bashing, is just getting so tired. Do we all really just want to recount our amazing experience beating a script in an instance? You know, the same script Curse already beat months before and released a video showing you how, which your guild leader just followed? Shatter my definition, please.
Darkfall is not going to be the Burger King to McDonalds, it won’t be Taco Bell, or even Red Lobster. It’s that new burger joint on the corner, and odds are, it’s going to fail. But it has a chance to offer you something a bit different than frozen meat and ‘secret sauce’, and even if you only get it once a month, it’s worthwhile. Do we really need to burn this place down to make room for another McDonalds?
I still don’t believe this game will ever come out.
Well its so close now I find little reason for reasonable doubt. Syncaine, you have a point. I wonder why people are so defensive when something radically new comes out. I imagine its a different application of Newton’s law. Objects at rest tend to stay at rest. In other words, people are resistant to change, and the forces required to get them moving in the change direction initially are quite large.
Some of the anti-Darkfall sentiment is based on pure skepticism. Aventurine has promised way too many features, they have spent way too much time in development to have much in the way of credibility, and they have missed way too many beta milestones to be taken very seriously. This has lead to people calling it vaporware.
That, in turn, brings out the rabid Darkfall supporters, people who make Heartless’ blind pre-release devotion to WAR seem logical, tepid and reserved. They say things like “Darkfall is going to be one of the biggest subscription-based MMORPGs over the next decade. It will rival and surpass EVE.” (Ammon777, who wants you all to know that you heard it from him first.)
That, of course, stokes the skeptics who respond and we end up with the escalating cycle of hate that has now had years to build.
I have actually done a couple of posts about Darkfall, not so much because I plan to play the game, but because the whole process interests me. I want to see how it all plays out. I took it as a challenge to post something about the game that expressed my own reservations that did not provoke hate from either side. I came close to success. I got a flame for posting about the game at all.
This, despite the occasional clamor for “change” in the MMO world.
*considers a political parallel… then declines the obvious snark*
*comes back for another*
It’s very much a herd mentality, not unlike U.S. elections. There are a lot of sheeple who want to “pick the winner” and will defend their choice to the death, without critical analysis, and without considering other viewpoints (or reality). They feel they have picked the winner in WoW (hey, it has 11 million, can it possibly be anything less than the epitome of design? /snark), and feel a need to justify that choice.
It’s just psych 101 kind of stuff; the “us vs. them” and herd mentalities. There’s nothing to be done for it. Just ignore the bleating and do your own thing. At least in the gaming world, the mindless masses can’t screw you over with the democratic process. If Darkfall finds its niche, and manages to stay alive, it will have its happy patrons, no matter what the peanut gallery has to say.
Why are all the “WoW sheep” taking a piss in DF?
Probably the same reason that hardcore “give me a sandbox or give me death” and FFA PvP advocates take a big dump on every new quest based PvE MMO that comes along. Most players like what they like and assume anything different is crap.
Just to clarify the ammon777 statement, does he think DF will be the biggest MMO ever, or bigger than EVE? Or does he magically assume EVE is going to start gaining subscribers by the millions?
And I totally understand the vaporware stance (not 100% out of that myself), but the above goes beyond vaporware. If DF comes out and says “our NPCs won’t give direct quests, but hints”, you know the first thing most will post about is “WoW clearly showed that the only viable PvE model is icon based, DF = fail”.
That’s the part I don’t get. Maybe hints would fail, but maybe they won’t. Why not let a niche game try it, and if it works, you know exactly the next feature going into WoW…
People who will try this game won’t be bothered by negative comments about it, just like people who play WoW aren’t bothered by negative comments about WoW. Open discussion of the faults people see and the reasons people will or will not play a game are great, because it helps like-minded people find the games they enjoy. Really, would you think it was a good thing if the post was more positive or neutral? I don’t think it helps anyone if a bunch of WoW fans sign up for this beta and then hate the game. It’s better that they are warned ahead of time and stay away.
If you eat something that makes you sick, you should complain about it and tell your friends that it made you sick. I’d be really mad if my friend ate at the new burger joint on the corner and hated it, but then told me to go try it. :)
PvP and MMOs are just not a very good match. Requiring gear and levels in MMO fashion means there’s no even battlefield where skill is the only measure of success.
FPS and RTS games are the perfect expression of PvP — everyone starts off together, and the best player wins. What does leveling and obtaining gear really add to the mix?
Swift, this is more that your friend loves McDonalds, and tells you and everyone else the new place sucks, even though it’s not open yet.
End of the day this does not matter, its all opinion, I just don’t get why PvP MMOs attract so much instant hate from PvE fans.
*agrees wholeheartedly with Tipa*
PvP is ultimately a skill testing sport. Turning it into paper-rock-gank and gear testing undermines the heart of what makes PvP tick.
Of course, Tipa, the idea of PvP not fitting in an MMO only really works if we assume that an MMO must be based on a DIKU flavored level/loot treadmill (the heart of a subscription business). If combat is only one aspect of an MMO that provides progress (along with a full economy, sociopolitical games, and such), PvP could fit into an MMO. It would be a gladiatorial subset of the game as a whole, highly regulated to make skill the key, not gear grinding.
Well, there’s a very valid argument that any new place that’s known to be different than McDonalds will not be liked as well as McDonalds but most people. You don’t even have to know anything about the new place except that it’s different. People like to stick with what they are familiar with. They like to feel comfortable and they like to know what to expect before they get their food. If they really like McDonalds, then why not complain about the useless burger joint on the corner that they’ll never even try. That corner could have been extra parking for the McDonalds next door!
I really think people want something more than WoW, but there isn’t anything like that in the MMO world. They want MORE neon, MORE powerranger, not less. They want an MMO where they can play while AFK and autolevel to their hearts’ content. People just hate hardcore and that shouldn’t surprise anyone.
“Most people don’t like PvP, let alone anything close to hardcore PvP, this is not news to anyone.”
Why the hate? Most gamers not only don’t like PvP they also don’t PvPers. The good thing about PvP games is that it gives the sociopaths somewhere else to go so we don’t have to put up with them.
“First things first, this is a ‘kettle calling the pot black’ type of post. I know, but that’s the joy of running a one man, type whatever blog. Feel free to skip the post if this somehow raises your blood pressure to unhealthy levels.”
Seriously, dude you should have stopped right there but applied it to when you were reading the topic at Broken Toys. :P
“…it gives the sociopaths somewhere else to go”
We already have Eve, Washington DC, the United Nations, and this blog. How many places do we need for sociopaths?
I think it’s possible that you’re mistaking humour for hate, at least in terms of Scott’s article. =)
Now we are just taking cheap shots… please don’t associate this blog with DC :)
It makes total sense to set Fallout 3 in DC, the place is scary even before the super mutants (or does it have those already?)
@BigBadB – I assumed Syncaine was referring to the comments on the post, rather than the post itself. I saw the post quite in the usual Scott vein of humor with sarcasm. But I’ll let Syncaine clarify that himself.
@syncaine – You’ll have to ask Ammon777 what he really meant, I only have the quote. I just like it because it is about as clear and well defined as some of the statements about the game get.
I think Jujutsu has something worth thinking about, why the hate between PvP and PvE players? Aren’t there enough loudmouthed jerks for us to all hate together without having to get down to the play-style categories?
Yea the article itself is nothing, I mean he wrote all of one sentence. I’ve been reading Lum on/off since UO, so I’m good with his humor. Reading the comments was what inspired the post, just from the blatant hope from some that this game dies.
The PvE/PvP thing is about as old as MMOs themselves (UO certainly helped set that table), but the core (to me) comes down to the fact that PvE gameplay interferes with PvP, and vice versa. Trammel killed PvP in UO, loot and battlegrounds killed what little world PvP WoW had, etc. On the other hand, PKs kill PvE players, ruin their game, they quit, etc. Two somewhat distinct groups, that butt heads on basically every concept of an MMO.
Just to add to that, whats different today than back in UO, is that all players have options. If you want a PvP game, you have EVE/WAR, if you want PvE, you have WoW/LoTRO/EQ2.
Back in 97-98, if you wanted an MMO, you played UO, whether you liked PvE or PvP. Plus the whole culture shock of online anonymity that is now an excepted norm was totally new back then. The idea that certain players would play for the sole reason to piss others off was somewhat unexpected. I still remember UO 1.0, with it’s living ecology system. The idea of such a system in an MMO today, especailly something like WoW, is laughable, while it seemed to make all the sense in the world back then.
I think the negative response has more to do with how much hype it has given that we’ve heard so little about it (aside from a handful of screenshots here and there.) We heard this same kind of hype for Dark and Light and Wish and a few others I can’t recall off of the top of my head.
Personally, I’d be happy if the game came out and delivered exactly what they promised. I doubt it would be my type of game, but I’d check it out, and the more diversity in MMO games we have, the better it is for everyone.
Lum is entitled to say what he wants about Darkfall, because he was writing about this shit a decade ago when it was called Ultima Online.
It’s not that lessons were forgotten, necessarily; it’s that some people never learned the right ones to begin with.
There is a certain odd tendency among MMO players to attack any MMO that they don’t get. That different players might, you know, enjoy different stuff doesn’t seem to come into it. I enjoy reading insightful criticism. However a lot of criticism that I see of MMOs consists of players that simply aren’t the target audience for a particular style of MMO attacking it. My personal standard for success in MMO design is how well an MMO accomplishes whatever it sets out to do, regardless of what a designer is trying for is something that appeals to me.
I know factually that DF is not going to be my style of MMO. However, I hope that it does well so that players that go for that playstyle will have someplace to go. It’s not as if when DF comes out they are going to shut down all PvE focused and consensual PvP games that I enjoy.
I will say that some of the DF advocates seem to be a bit deluded about the potential market for that style of game. If they manage a steady 100K subs (much less EVE numbers), I think the devs will have pretty much knocked the game out of the park. I’d love to see it do that well, but so far I’m not convinced that the devs really have their act together. Honestly this is looking like another VG to me.
Fanbois know no reason, and WoW fanbois are the worst.
That said, I partially agree with Tipa — FPS games are the ultimate expression of PvP, MMOs are a poor substitute. However, it is possible to make a good PvP MMO (see WAR), but I’m not sure it’s possible to make a good hardcore PvP MMO (see Shadowbane). Maybe Darkfall will deliver what hardcore pvpers have wanted for years, or maybe it won’t. Time will tell, but I know I won’t experience it for myself. I’ll stick to carefully balanced Realm vs. Realm to sate my pvp needs.
Lol you like Fallout 3. A game that is so devoid of any story, feeling or BRAINZ that it makes me scream. You cant tell ANYONE that theyre a bicmac to your steak.
It is refreshing to hear that there are still MMOGamers out there that are willing to let everyone play what they want to play…and not bash everyone else for skipping the game they love.
I am no PvPer (in fact there was a time in EVE when the term “Gardavil” was another term for “Carebear” lol) …BUT I DO APPRECIATE WHY PLAYERS LOVE PVP. More power to any Develpment Company with enough gonads to create a real PvP MMOG….I sincerely hope that Darkfall fills the bill and there are more PvP Centric games like EVE and Darkfall to come. The MMO Industry has been run by the BeanCounters for years now and it’s time the paid attention to the portion of the Playerbase that enjoys quality PvP. Another game to keep our eyes on will be Stargate Worlds…I hope they haven’t gutted it out to attract the PvE crowd as SGW would be an awesome PvP game due to it’s unique IP.
Stargate’s IP lends itself well to both PvE and PvP. The tactical combat they are building definitely has PvP potential, but the storylines themselves can go either way, and the ‘gate aspect itself is about exploration. I’m hoping that they find success, despite not wanting to personally support any company with a subscription model.
Hey, best of luck to them.
If you want to know what some people preemptively scorn the game, that would be the community. After however-many Darkfall fans have launched forum and blog-comment invasions… heck, look at previous Darkfall topics on Lum’s site, you’ll get a sense.