It’s something that has been said before, but it bears repeating: an MMO without levels is just infinitely more accessible than one with, yet the majority of the AAA MMOs out today feature level-gating, and rather than deal with the root cause they continue to add systems (mentoring for levels, gems/sockets for gear) to try and mitigate the original issue.
Here’s the scenario that prompted the above. A returning guild-mate in DarkFall logs in for the first time to play with his old friends, and ON THAT DAY he is given some gear from the guild bank, a mount, and he gets an invite to a group that is heading out to capture some village control points to boost the guilds gold income. While out to capture those villages, the group has a few PvP encounters, and day-one guy is able to contribute in a meaningful way due to his knowledge of the game from having played on the EU server. Since the enemy can’t just look at his level and write him off, and since the difference in his damage compared to others is not THAT noticeable, he is just another opponent to anyone who fights the group. He is also given a siege hammer and is able to help capture those points, so rather then being a tag-along, he is doing nearly the same amount of good for this guild on day one that members who have been playing for months are currently doing. The key factor was that he wanted to contribute, and his time was the most important attribute in determining his contribution.
He’s not told to run the noobie quests, he does not have to complete the starting tutorial area, we don’t need to run him through hours of content before he catches up; day one the guy is basically a full-time player in a guild that’s deep into the ‘end-game’ of DarkFall’s clan vs clan action. And that basically applies to anyone in the guild. When forming a group for anything, you don’t ask people to link achievements, what tier their gear is at, or how high their level is; you just add them in if they are willing to go. We know who our top PvP guys are, we know when it’s time to pull out the top-shelf gear, and we know when the PvP is ‘serious business’ and you shut up and follow orders, but that 10% or so aside, most days are just log in, see what’s up, and go out and do it. Lovely accessible freedom from a game most consider on the exact opposite end of the most accessible game in the space, WoW. It’s also part of the reason I’m avoiding Aion; I can’t get myself excited about 25+ levels of WoW-like PvE just to reach some PvP or anything resembling something new, no matter how pretty the game might be.
Hardcore Casual 
Very poignant observations. As much as I have wanted to rejoin the World of WOW lately, given xpac announcements (re: Cataclysm), this is EXACTLY why there is no chance in hell that I ever will. I have no interest in leveling 0-80, gearing up, etc., just to play the “real game” (raiding).
Games like DarkFall (even though I don’t enjoy it) and EVE both offer very quick entrances to a fun world of PvP. Kudos to them for keeping the barrier-to-fun at a MUCH lower level than their raiding-treadmill competitors.
It’s not just a quick ticket to PvP, it works for PvE as well. Groups form and people go out to farm just like they do for PvP; you don’t ask about levels/skill/gear, you just take whoever wants to come and teach them whatever they need to know about the spawn/dungeon you hit up.
And of course it works for crafting. Anyone can grab a pick/axe/sickle and go gather, then pass those mats on to a clan crafter and get some gear or gold. Or keep the mats and skill up their own crafting at whatever pace they want to go at. At no point in your skill gain will you stop because to get to 200, you must be level 50, or complete some level 60 quest.
That’s a great mechanism for a game that basically revolves around fighting other players.
Personally I wish games companies would just decide whther the game is PvE or PvP and stick to it. Permanently.
Unfortunately most games companies can’t bear the thought of going without a single potential extra dollar, so they throw in PvE, PvP, crafting, economy, housing, etc. etc. Not surprisingly, few of them manage to do all of them well, and most of them manage to do most of them badly.
I’d love an all-crafting MMO. I’d love an all PvE (dropped-loot only, no crafting, no economy) MMO. I’d love a medieaval fantasy economic sim MMO. I’d try ’em all.
I’m just hoping that in time off-the-shelf MMO development packages will bring down the start-up costs so that there’s a welter of niche market games. Darkfall could be an example, but I’m hoping we don’t have to wait 8 years for more variations.
This is one of Darkfall’s greatest features. Day one I was able to group with friends and help kill harder mobs for good loot. Day 2 I was soloing goblin scouts. Day 3 I was in group helping pvp. I didn’t hear, your to low, or you should be in the barrens zone right now. I was able to log in an help contribute to my friends from the start anywhere, anytime. It’s a much more welcoming system than the lvl based games.
I would argue that the root cause is not level-based progression, but rather progression itself. The very fact that a game is an RPG typically entails some type of increase in power, and it is the severity of the power increase that determines the accessibility in your particular example.
Imagine, if you will, that Mana Missile 75.0 was several orders of magnitude more powerful than Mana Missile 1.0. Further, let’s say that day-sixty guy has 100 times more HP than day-one guy. Day-one guy is no longer able to contribute in a meaningful way during PvP.
Games such as WAR and CoX choose to mitigate the issue with temporary level adjustment. WoW, for all practical purposes, chooses not to mitigate the issue. Games such as Darkfall and EVE are not immune to the issue as skill-based progression has nothing to do with it. They mitigate the issue by reducing the power curve directly. I happen to like the latter two games’ design strategy better, but I don’t find them “infinitely” more accessible.
The numbers you use for mana missile and HP are a bit high, but if MM did 3x damage, and someone had 2x HP, player skill would still be a major factor in DarkFall PvP. As a personal example, I dueled one of our better clan mates in a melee-only duel. I was in much better gear and our character skills are basically equal; he destroyed me in 15 seconds and ended the fight with full HP. Now I’m not great at PvP, but even with 2x HP and 3x damage, he would still have won. And even with those numbers, we would still invite new players into PvP and PvE groups.
It’s the combination of the system not having a huge wall to climb, and putting more direct control in the players hands (rather than putting it in his level/gear) that makes things accessible.
I apologize for being unclear in my example. I did not mean imply that Darkfall numbers are anywhere near those that were used. I was attempting to illustrate that if you applied WoW’s power disparity to Darkfall’s skill system, the result in “accessibility” is the same between the two games.
My goal was to refute the notion that levels have anything to do with your guildmate’s first day experience. Instead, I believe that different games solve the progression “problem” in different ways and each with unique consequences.
Got ya. The real problem is indeed the way power scales as your character progresses, and it’s usually level-based games where your power grows much higher than in a game like UO or DF (not sure how EVE fits into that though, considering the power difference between a Frig and a Titan).
Eve handles this with specific roles and individuality versus team focus. Frigates are small and agile, good for ambushes, raids, harassment and guerrilla warfare. But as one goes up in ship sizes, the ships get slower, more vulnerable and more reliant on the team. For example, Dreadnoughts are the Eve equivalent of siege engines: Capable of massive damage, more than enough to obliterate any enemy with one shot. They’re also expensive and vulnerable. If one does not have an enemy encampment to attack and a squad to defend the siege engine, then using one is a total waste.
This post details why I care at all about Darkfall. This is why it will probably be more successful than Shadowbane.
Man…reading your blog has got me itching to try Darkfall. I really wish there was a free trial. I’ve been burned so many times on games I’ve played one day and never launched again.
You are ignoring one of the huge advantages of games that follow a level based system. That is that the game guides the player along and moves the player to appropriate difficulty level content. The game provides the content and directs the player to it.
True, an open ended sand box style game is all about user generated content, but for every player like your friend that logs into DF and jumps right into the action, I wonder how many players log in and get bored killing goblins and unsubscribe…
I think the point he is making is that running a player through content is not an “advantage.” In fact, its pretty much the definition of “theme park” MMOs, that syncaine constantly complains about.
If someone quits Darkfall because they think all there is to do is kill goblins, then its probably not the game for them anyway. These sorts of games to presume a little bit of active participation on the part of the player, and if you can’t put in enough to get based, I don’t have any quests, and all I see to do is kill goblins…well.. I don’t know what to tell a person like that.
I got his point and he makes it well. Such an open ended system works great for a player who has an existing structure in place to guide him/her along. But not every player will have this advantage and it seems counterintuitive to assume that they will. Perhaps there are guilds that are standing around the starter areas recruiting new players and showing them that there is more to do than killing goblin camps, but that was not the example used.
Tune in tomorrow Centuri…
~dreamy sigh~
I need to try Darkfall. While I’m not always in a PvP MMO mood, I really, REALLY appreciate skill-based games designed like that. I love to be able to log in and play, and not have to play x amount to “keep up” with my guildies or risk becoming a handicap.
I used to play MUD’s back in the day, and that was my #1 requirement when looking for a new one to try: Skill based systems.
Level based gaming is there because of two reasons:
1) It’s much easier to design content for specific level (read: power) bands
2) Tying into 1, it’s much easier to direct players to content suitable for their strength.
I realize that the majority of MMO players these days want that. They want to be led around by the hand, and go through the content more or less on rails, but I yearn for games where the world is open and dangerous…. particularly when the danger is not always readily apparent. It makes exploration infinitely more interesting.
On a skill based system, it’s left up to the player to know his capabilities, and the designers to find ways to show the danger of various opponents in the same way you would in the real world – movement, appearance, etc. So much more immersive.
I am not a huge pvper, been jaded from pvp. But after reading this, I am seriously thinking of giving Darkfall a try now.
Gotta agree about skill-based Vs. class-based…it’s one of the things I enjoyed about Eve and SWG. Much more accessible, and I usually feel more attached to my characters as well.
*shrug* I am not trying to troll bait but when I think MMORPG, I think of levels and progression. When you talk about a game where day one characters can team up with day one hundred characters, I think of something like an FPS in a persistent world. Something like Planetside. For me the “RPG” part means levels and content gating.
Skill based systems do have progression, it’s just more granular. There’s just no “*DING!* Level!”
You still build your character and customize to your liking. In fact, there is typically much more customization going on, particularly in the classless model. You make your character how you want it made, rather than following a preset template. Newer characters can contribute meaningfully by just doing a single thing well (Eve, Darkfall) by putting their limited experience into basic attack and defense skills with a single weapon type. Older, more progressed characters typically won’t to enormously more damage, but will have a much bigger toolbox to work with allowing them many more options in combat.
This means that one-on-one fights typically favour the more progressed character without doubt, but in group battles the newer characters can still contribute meaningfully.
an FPS in a persistent world is more of an extreme. Typically, FPS games have no progression at all, and generally no customization. It’s a very different animal.
That’s exactly what I loved about SWG (pre-CU/NGE). My guild would group up and all of us could feel like we contributed. From our Architect, to our Doctor, to our Entertainers and of course the combat people. We all had some combat ability and were able to help out.
I remember getting dragged to Dathomir and Endor when I was still new and helping take down Rancors and other nasty mobs. It was great, cause I got a chance to help, and even managed to be a main healer for a while (as I had a ton of crafted stimpacks in my inventory).
Levels just make things so much more complicated, and break up friends if they don’t keep together. The only other way to work around it is the CoH/V sidekicking/exemplaring system. And even that doesn’t quite work out.
That’s a big part of it. Somewhat ironically, WoW is a terrible offender in regards to playing with friends while levelling. Unless you ONLY play together, people will level at different rates and very quickly get to a point where the owlet difference is so extreme that it’s just not fun to play together anymore.
I know this was a constant problem with my wife and I. She wasn’t into playing as often as me, so I had to run two different toons… But I dislike doing that. I pick one to play at a time, and focus on that toon exclusively.
Skill based games avoid this problem.
I think the level based content is an advantage at the beginning of the life cycle of a game. At that point you are playing with everyone else and its ok. But as others have pointed out once the game is mature it seperates friends from each other. And in a game like WOS if your friends are hardcore you can’t catch up unless they help you and then theres no real challenge as you get powerleveled.
err WOW
OK, so what about the perpetual counterpoint to classless design proposals, that “without clear class designs, you can’t tell at a glance what you’re facing, making PvP more frustrating than it needs to be”? I’ve always thought that was a load of bull, but there really are those who don’t want to approach combat with an open mind and take things as they come. They want to play the Rogue and write off that Mage/Warlock and mentally move on to dodging the Paladin.
So, short story long, do people actually *like* Darkfall PvP *because* anyone is dangerous? I’ve been a proponent of that sort of design for a long time now, but how does it work in practice?
Yea, PvP in DarkFall basically works like that. Two things that factor in though, one is character skill and the other is player skill. If my character has maxed out fire magic, I’m more likely to favor ranged magic fighting, and will likely have player skill in aiming and hitting with fire magic. If I focused more on archery, I’ll favor that. Same with melee.
So what happens in small scale PvP (large scale is totally different, and is more about formation and group work than any one individuals fighting style) is people feel each other out, seeing who favors what style of fighting. If you pick up that someone is a great archery, but is weak in melee (both character and player skill remember), then you rush and press them. If they are great at melee, you pull out a shield and parry them, and either they switch targets or wait you out. Stuff like that.
So while you can’t see someones ‘class’ when you first see them (although someone in bone armor is likely a caster, someone in plate is melee/archery, but that’s not guaranteed of course), you DO pick up on what they like to do, and hopefully you have time to react. Now if you fight the same clan/alliance often, you start to recognize names (especially the really good fighters) and know what you are up against when you see them.
Then you factor in numbers, the location, the gear everyone has at the time, who jumped who, and yea, PvP in DF is a complex beast that is a rush unlike any MMO I’ve played.
Cool. Very cool.
I’ve got to admit, I’m still not buying into DF for a couple of other reasons, but that core combat design sounds really sweet. One more reason why I hope DF succeeds, and why I appreciate these articles where you cover it on this level.
Thanks!
Seriously, I just can’t accept “With classless design, you can’t tell what someone can do at a glance” as an actual arguement in favour of class-based design.
It’s absurd. Why SHOULD you be able to know someones capabilities at a glance? I’d argue that PvP on the whole is vastly more entertaining when you don’t necessarily know what someone is capable of doing until you’ve faced them before (and even then, who knows for sure?) It’s much more “real” feeling, after all. It goes both ways, of course: You don’t know what he can do, he doesn’t know what you can do.
Just rushing into combat with a pre-established strategy sucks. My vs his , so I open with , and hold for when he uses . Blah! Getting good at PvP in this case is largely a rock-paper-scissors game.
Far better to start an engagement with an element of caution, to try to get a feel for his abilities; to predict what he may do based on what he’s done.
Most PVP engagements don’t give players that luxury. You need to know early on if you are outmatched or fighting a specific style of player otherwise you are dead in short order. Especially if ambushed or outnumbered.
Plus, you have to have a pre-established strategy if there is any real difference in combat. Like if I have a polearm as a main, I build my strategy based on what I can do and are comfortable with. Maybe polearms are good at AOE sweeps, and I use it that way. Maybe someone else uses it for hard single piercing attacks. But you go from there then adapt.
In Darkfall sounds like you can feel each other out mostly because there are no real choices. Mage/meelee/caster.
You’re dead in short order if the game is designed that way, like a rock-paper-scissors high power differential game. If the power band is smaller and there is room for mistakes and experimentation, it can be a far more forgiving and thus interesting tactical experience. I’m not sure how quick combat is over in DF, but it certainly doesn’t need to be a series of three second engagements.
@dblade Its two sided. Each player has an equal opportunity to ‘feel out’ the other – baring, perhaps, ambushes and the like – but those situations shouldn’t be fair.
I don’t know darkfall in particular, but I’ve played many skill based classless games over the years (particularly with MUDs, back where all this comes from. It’s works well even when there are huge differences between characters. If anything, it works BEST when there are major choices, differences.
See, if players can tell ‘class’ details easily or not doesn’t affect balance because it affects everyone equally. What it does do though is makes combat much more vibrant, intense. Class-based systems only serve to dumb that down, and pigeonhole people into set strategies and counter-strategies. Open skill based systems remove that luxury: just because tour opponent has a huge vicious looking polearms doesn’t mean you are safer at range.
The uncertainty that is created is key to the fun!