Dummies like dummy games

My fiancé currently prefers WAR over DDO because DDO got hard.

I prefer DDO over WAR because DDO is an enjoyable challenge rather than the insta-win that is general MMO PvE.

I consider myself an MMO gamer; she is the casual player playing with me to play something. EVE is hard, 300k users. WoW is easy, 5 million users. Just sayin’…

I know, beyond oversimplified, but still telling IMO.

About SynCaine

Former hardcore raider turned casual gamer.
This entry was posted in DDO, Dungeons and Dragons Online, EVE Online, MMO design, Warhammer Online, World of Warcraft. Bookmark the permalink.

57 Responses to Dummies like dummy games

  1. Beau says:

    Dude, EVE is not hard.

    Beau

    • syncaine says:

      I know I know, rocket science / cure for cancer, we get it.

      It’s hard compared to WoW, sorry I did not Beau-efy the statement.

  2. Xyloxan says:

    Syn, you know very well that WoW has millions of users not because it’s easy but because it’s a well-designed game. When you played it riding and slowly advancing in the end-game instances, did you think about it as “easy”? I doubt it. In fact, it was “hard” (in the beginning), and still millions of people played it.

  3. Werit says:

    Did you just call your fiancé a dummy?

    I would say Eve is deeper, which doesn’t mean harder. It is really just more time consuming than other games too.

  4. Wilhelm2451 says:

    Now you’re just trolling, going for controversy by insulting the maximum audience.

    Taking the easy route to insult people by claiming they are taking the easy route. Ironic.

  5. Coppertopper says:

    Here’s your sign!

  6. Talinine says:

    Wow, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an engagement called off via gaming blog before today.

  7. Snafzg says:

    LOL – Hope your fiance doesn’t read your blog! :P

  8. Andrew says:

    EVE is slow-paced; not hard.

  9. Thallian says:

    yeah that was a little excessively inflammatory.. though I’ve done worse things and said I’m sorry and lived to tell the tale.. though not very often.. Usually I just get killed by the angry mob.

  10. Loire says:

    WoW is a well-designed game? You’d never guess with the way Blizzard continues to do away with all of WoW’s original content.

    • Xyloxan says:

      Loire, as the saying goes, it’s very hard to argue with success.

      • Loire says:

        Miley Cyrus is success. The Jonas Borthers, Avril Lavigne, Nickelback all successful. Transformers 2, the Davinci Code. All very successful in their own right.

        You know why you can argue with success? Because most human beings have horrible taste. Popular != Good.

      • Loire says:

        Speaking of which; my comment had nothing to do with WoW’s success but the way in which Blizzard disowns its own creations as if they are embarrassed by their previously successful work.

  11. Zardoz says:

    My $0.02 worth is that it is all about the c-word. You know, “challenge”. More challenges = less boredom; it’s just that simple.

    I haven’t played D&D Online yet, but I sure did try Warhamster. My first quest was your basic “kill 10 squigs”. Unfortunately the first squig I aggroed ran straight past me to attack an NPC and so presented its back to me. Sigh.

    Five minutes later the demo was uninstalled and that, as they say, was that.

  12. Zensun says:

    I agree with the content of your post, which doesn’t seem to have anything to do with your flamebait subject line. :)

    • syncaine says:

      My fiance’s character name is Dummystix, so the title is a bit of an inside joke. That WoW fans get up in arms anytime you mention the game is a side bonus, although an enjoyable one.

  13. spinks says:

    It’s definitely much easier to get your friends to play with you if the game itself is casual friendly. (Ideally you’d have a game that has content for both casuals and hardcore and still lets them play together when they want — I think WAR has a decent try at that).

    But frex, my husband loves CoH and I’ve never been able to level anything past about 14. Whatever challenge a game needs, it isn’t there for me and I get bored.

  14. Beau says:

    “Miley Cyrus is success. The Jonas Borthers, Avril Lavigne, Nickelback all successful. Transformers 2, the Davinci Code. All very successful in their own right.

    You know why you can argue with success? Because most human beings have horrible taste. Popular != Good.”

    I hope to god that you aren’t saying that everything popular is bad. Surely you know of some good things that are popular, right?

    If not, you need to stop…step away from the keyboard…

    And no, Syn, it is not hard compared to WoW. Neither game is hard. Jeez, man, you need some walk-throughs or a good Corp let me know. They’ll hold your hand through the entire process.

    Beau

    • syncaine says:

      Lets play the matching game. WoW and EVE. Using either ‘easy’ or ‘hard’, only using each choice once, match them to the above games.

    • Loire says:

      Were talking WoW level of success. I can name great bands from the sixties/seventies that were quite successful but that was a different time period entirely.

      Truely good bands now a days in every genre are nowhere near as successful as those I lifted above. You’ve got your Metric’s, Ten Second Epic’s, Street Sweeper Social Club. None of them will be known as entertainment moguls such as J. Brothers, Avril Lavigne.

      I maintain that human beings for the most part have horrible taste.

      Look at AT40.

  15. Ravious says:

    See also Transformers 2 (critics) and Transformers 2 (gross $$$).

    • Ravious says:

      See also me not reading all comments.

    • syncaine says:

      I liked Transformers, 1 and 2. Of course I grow up watching Optimus Prime fly his ship into the sun to finally die (but not really), thinking it was one of the most epic moments in cartoon history. At that age I also thought GI Joe had a good storyline for each mission, but that’s the bliss of being a little kid I guess.

  16. pitrelli says:

    I think alot of what easy and hard in mmos comes down to is how fast you can achieve something of note or to a point where you have developed your character significantly. WoW imo is easy (and being made easier each patch)having not played EvE i cant comment but it does look both time consuming and more complex

  17. Beau says:

    “Lets play the matching game. WoW and EVE. Using either ‘easy’ or ‘hard’, only using each choice once, match them to the above games.”

    It depends on what area of the game, and who the player is. You are picking the words for me, trying to get me to tell you what you want to hear.

    I’m just being honest, dude. Some of WoW’s raiding is “hard”, which you might know since you did not raid after BC. That was a LONG time ago. Also, while some of EVE might be challenging, you learn new skills simply by clicking “learn” and waiting.

    Not only that, but you can LITERALLY buy money, pilots of entire fleets for real life money. Not very hard. But, I mainly played a lot before that. I was involved with a decent amount of war, and I am simply telling you that in war, raising cash, traveling and all that can be relatively easy (on the same point in the “challenge” scale” as some of WoW. Notice I said SOME not all) when compared to WoW.

    You can make sweeping statements, that’s fine. You will never admit that you found challenge in WoW, and of course you wouldn’t know of it’s challenge for the last what, how long has it been since BC? So you can’t speak on that.

    And you can say that EVE is “hard”, lot’s of people do. What they should say is that it can be “time consuming” and once you have some basic knowledge, time is your worst enemy, not other players or the environment.

    Beau

  18. Beau Turkey says:

    And yes, (sorry waffles were burning) I am saying that they are challenging AND easy. I am going to blog about it, but let’s just say that at first, many things are challenging that become easy soon after.

    Video games are like that. EVE is definitely like that.

    Beau

  19. Leala says:

    You can level in Eve without even logging in and playing the game. Seems easier than WoW to me. You actually have to PLAY WoW. haha

  20. Beau Turkey says:

    Honey, he probably got podded and lost a few mill. That’s usually when they claim it was “hard” instead of “I shoulda’ been more careful.”

    Beau

    • syncaine says:

      That’s cute, but you know me better than that. I enjoy the challenge of EVE (market, mining efficiency, fleet ops), and while vanilla raiding was entertaining, that’s (especially now) a very minor part of WoW, a part that what, 95% of the pop never saw? Sure 4h was about as tough an encounter as you will find in a game, but when only a few guilds ever saw the encounter, let alone beat it, it’s tough to compare that aspect of WoW to say, the entire economy of EVE.

      Funny that she forgets/ignore that SP mean nothing in EVE without ISK, so comparing SP gain to lvls is rather… foolish?

  21. Bonedead says:

    These comments are the gayest thing ever.

  22. Twan says:

    Dont feel so bad. My wife prefers General Hospital to WoW!

  23. Art Vandelay says:

    “EVE is hard, 300k users”

    While I cant fault the assesment of wow, even if you are quite obviously trolling pathetically in place of content (surely baiting wow players is even easier than playing warcraft?)… EVE is anything but hard dude.

    Skills level and characters progress when logged out. Combat consists of sticky target, auto fire. The hard part is finding the fun outside of a corp. Ahh no, thats right.. you have the choice of running tedious NPC missions or mining rocks for a few hours.

    I think you will find there is a very solid reason that EVE only has 300k subs.. and its nothing to do with difficulty.

    But then just like wow players will swear that wow is still good despite the fact it is rotting in its own excrement.. EVE players will remark its the games difficulty that keeps subs low.

    Not the mind numbingly tedious gameplay… not the massive design problems with the UI that cause huge barriers to entry to anyone but MMO regulars.. not the fact that PVE is laughably easy and repetitive and mining is like taking a job watching paint dry.. not the fact that unless you join a corp PVP is pointless or at the very best you may get a kill in before being wiped out by your targets corp buddies.

    no no, its because EVE is hard. Yeah, I know your a fan of the game but seriously, keep repeating that mantra just like every other MMO player that defends his/her chosen MMO and ignores the problems while shouting about every other MMO’s problems at the top of their voice.

    Not a single one of the mmo’s on the market right now is worth playing to anyone who has spent more than a year playing MMO’s. Every last one of them is recycled concepts and ideas. Boring, uninspired, unbalanced crap.

  24. Beau says:

    “That’s cute, but you know me better than that. I enjoy the challenge of EVE (market, mining efficiency, fleet ops),”

    See, that’s the point. You enjoy the “challenge” of something like a market, or mining. You know how many players I know that would laugh at the fact that you call that challenging? Efficiency? Well, I can make up any number of goals and find challenge, as well.

    You can take anything, even something as basic as mining, and MAKE it a challenge by setting certain goals, approaching it a certain way, etc. But that does not mean it is HARD.

    No, she didn’t forget that part, Syn. She doesn’t play EVE because it’s BORING. Granted, I like that boring kind of play..slow, easy, almost like a turn based game. See, EVE is like chess: easy to learn AND play, but hard depending on the circumstance. If I played you in chess, I would win pretty easily. If I played someone better than me, I would have a challenge. That doesn’t mean the game became harder…it means that the circumstance changed.

    WoW is the same way. I will promise you that if you were to just stop griping about WoW and actually go and play it, the first few times inside some of the newer dungeons you would have a CHALLENGE. You would die, possibly a lot.

    Then, after installing 400 mods, reading up on some walk-throughs and having the raid leader telling you where to stand and what button to push, the level of challenge would DROP.

    So yes, these games are both hard and easy. But you ain’t fooling anyone (not even my wife that doesn’t PLAY EVE) that EVE is somehow harder than any other game out there. More boring? Yeh. But not harder.

    Beau

  25. Aria ("the fiancé") says:

    I know I’m taking a chance here to be ripped by the wolves that are MMO blog readers, but here it goes….first off don’t worry, I’m not insulted…much. We discussed this last night and I calmly explained that we had a difference of opinions. I no longer like DDO because it got repetitive, too difficult, and I wasn’t getting what I saw to be any significant compensation to continue to play (xp, rewards, etc.). I don’t find that “challenging,” I find it dull, boring, and not fun. And so far in my young gaming life, if I no longer want to log in to play a game, I take that as a tell tale sign as, cancel the subscription, I’m all set. I continue to enjoy warhammer because there are always people willing to group up to do PQ’s (the few times we tried to get a group together in DDO it failed miserably), it’s much busier, and I enjoy the feeling of leveling up after playing for a bit. There is ALWAYS something to keep me entertained and occupied in war. Now, my viewpoint got me ridiculed by my fiancé saying that I needed constant positive reinforcement, much like a kindergartener learning to read, but I disagree. We just have a difference viewpoint. He already went this route for many years and now has a jaded and cynical viewpoint (have you noticed?) but I am just beginning to play and I actually find it enjoyable (gasp!). Will I ever enjoy EVE or other games I see him playing that make me want to stab myself in the eyes repeatedly while watching…. probably not. But if I spent 80 hours a week raiding in WOW for 2 years, I would probably have a sour taste in my mouth about the game (and others similar to it) too and constantly be on the lookout for new and different concept games. Whatever though. You play your game, I’ll play mine, and we’ll meet in the middle on games that we both can somewhat enjoy. It’s better than sleeping in separate bedrooms? Kidding, the wedding is still on…..for now. : )

  26. Centuri says:

    Anyone who says EVE PVE is borring and repetive needs to go spend a few hours solo/small gang in a wormhole.

  27. Xyloxan says:

    Hard/challenging/easy, interesting/boring, it’s all relative and subjective. And that’s cool. If it were otherwise, there would be no blogs and no jabbing bloggers…

  28. Bonedead says:

    How about EVE is harder to make yourself continually play than WoW?

  29. Beau says:

    “But if I spent 80 hours a week raiding in WOW for 2 years, I would probably have a sour taste in my mouth about the game (and others similar to it) too..”

    Syn, man.

    Oh. My. God. 80 HOURS A WEEK? FOR TWO YEARS?

    Yeh, blame THE GAME. Did you WORK? Did you leave the house? Dear LAWD! Anyway, nice to hear from the fiance’! :)

    Beau

  30. syncaine says:

    Yea buddy, 80 hours per week for two years… zero exaggeration… Please, if I actually played that much (and had a guild that matched that), we would have run out of vanilla content a few weeks after every raid patch. I had more time during college, sure, but not that much more.

  31. Beau says:

    Ok, then, how many hours per week?

    Beau

  32. syncaine says:

    Depended on what we were raiding, how motivated all 50 of us were to progress etc. But I would say 40 hours per week is a safe bet, considering some it was 50+ and others less than 30. Keep in mind during my peak, WoW was ALL I played, period. No console, no tv, no other games, just WoW.

  33. Beau says:

    Dude, even 40 hours a week is excessive. For 2 years, man. I understand that you might think this is normal, but that is 8 hours a day for 5 days a week.

    Point is, you were obsessed with the game. That’s cool, I think it’s unhealthy and a little crazy, but I know plenty of people that play that much.

    But you don’t think that playing …hang on..basic math…104 weeks…times 40 hours a week…equals…4,160 HOURS, MAINLY in one section of the game (raiding) had anything at all with this loss of interest?

    So, according to you, after BC the game became “vanilla”, and so if they hadn’t you would STILL be playing only WoW, not watching TV, leaving the house, eating, sleeping or pooping? Ok, pooping maybe. Your boredom with this repetitive behavior had nothing to do with how you viewed the game?

    C’mon man, be honest…you played more like 60 a week. Every night of the week, at least 8-9 hours. I’m not making fun or anything, but you have to admit that being addicted to one activity (imagine if I said I watched TV for 40-50 hours a week??) MIGHT have something to do with your sensory overload and generally pissed off attitude. Might explain why you missed so much development in other games, especially in the F2P market.

    Almost 10 years ago I was checking out F2P games, and I can tell you that if you played nothing but a handful of games and one game exclusively for 2 years, you have missed a lot.

    Beau

  34. syncaine says:

    40 hours might be excessive for you, but I’m good with it, and have been since high school. Even today, with a full time job, 1h commute, fiance, building a house, ect, I still play 30-40 hours a week. Over seven days, with a weekend, that’s easily doable, for me.

    As for my loss of interest in WoW, and my current distaste for Blizzard, those are not as closely linked as you try to make. That WoW was a better game when the A-team devs were on it is one thing; that Blizzard is bad for the MMO genre is another. Don’t confuse the two.

    Oh and congrats on playing F2P games 10 years ago. I wonder if back then they were as second rate as they are today? I’ve played every major MMO I’ve been interested in, most enough to ‘get’ them, so don’t worry about WoW impacting that (look at what was released in 2005, 2006, not a whole lot of gems)

  35. Kessiaan says:

    It’s the same thing I’ve been saying for years now – people using the term ‘casual’ as an excuse to be bad. Real casuals, people who just don’t play so much but are still good at whatever they do, don’t use the term anymore, for the most part, because it has such a negative connotation now.

    So far there has yet to be a good, solid MMO that can satisfy people looking for something easy and something challenging. I really liked how Diablo II did it with it’s normal, nightmare, hell, and hardcore modes, but true MMOs have yet to really grasp the concept of scaling difficulty.

  36. The smart people are probably the ones who stay away from MMOs in the first place :)

  37. Ninetytwo says:

    I think being really invested in what other people play has always been a recipe for disaster for me.

    I like what I like, other people like what they like. Trying to extrapolate from “Joe likes Tetris” to “Joe is stupid” has never seemed to make sense for me.

    Lots of people way smarter than me are terrible at video games that I consider easy.

  38. Solidstate says:

    > He already went this route for many years and now has a jaded and cynical viewpoint (have you noticed?)

    A bit lol :)

    Oh and welcome to the blogosphere Aria, don’t worry *most of us* don’t bite ;)

  39. Dblade says:

    It’s a silly argument. The point of any game is for the player to have fun, and since MMOs can’t act like offline games and just add difficulty settings to the same content effectively, they tend to be striated by it.

    Point of the difficulty is to enable players to balance themselves to a specific game and find enjoyment in it, not satisfy some mythical standard of what a “real” player is. Some players are more skilled in a specific style of game, some less. WoW’s success what that historically the less skilled players were marginalized, and no MMO targeted them.

  40. Remastered says:

    If Aria could duel Syn in WAR, my money would totally be on Aria.

  41. alfon says:

    thanks for sharing bro

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